Tancredo: If attacked, bomb Mecca!

Are you saying that Islam and muslims should be completely wiped out in order this to work and that west "wins"? :confused:

If that is the only thing that would stop our cities from being nuked, chem'ed, or bio'ed, then I would take that step to protect this nation, if I were President. Now, I realize that this scenario is highly unlikely, but nevertheless, there it is.
 
What you are referring to is Genocide. Getting rid of holy sites doesn't get rid of a religion. Getting rid of people or systematically eradicating a culture gets rid of a religion. Which one are you advocating?

Or do you actually have an example where merely destroying holy sites also destroyed a religion?

-Drachasor

At this time, I am not advocating either one. Refer to my above post.
 
What makes you think all of fundie america believes in ID?
They don't. They believe that the world is 6000 years old and that evolution didn't happen. They're baffled by the Harun Yahya books, because they have no clue in what regards they're wrong. And misunderstanding/ actively misunderstanding evolution is only one facet of the endemic ignorance that should be actively reduced. It's easiest to reduce ignorance near yourself, than it is to reduce it far away.
Lets get back to reality for a bit because we both know what you suggest is never, ever, going to happen.
:lol: So, I guess you're not going to help, then, eh?
I love that your concept in this discussion with me is that ignorance among Westen Fundies needn't be reduced.
The problem that I see is that jihadists want to kill people. You think western ignorance has something to do with this...I dont.
Well, you need some way to reduce the number or intensity of the jihadists. There are multiple avenues of reducing their numbers, and reducing ignorance is certainly a tack to take. And yes, ignorance is reduced by osmosis, heavily.
 
No, your logic just says that Islam had the "right" to destroy the foundation of Christianity, which validates, to terrorists, their suicide bombings and acts of terrorism.

No, my statement was that if it were necessary to destroy Islam in order to stop attacks on our nation, using weapons of mass destruction, I would take that option, if I were President. Don't try to reword what I have said in order to fit your preconceived notions of me.

The terrorists, on the other hand, have proven over the past decades that terrorist attacks do not, in fact, achieve the objectives of these groups. It seems, to me, a failed strategy.

The fact is that Western Civilization, at least to some extent, is intent on confronting the various issues that plague the Muslim World and maintain it in a state of constant chaos, violence, and degradation. The various nations and groups of the West have different views on just how to proceed with that mission, but I think that it is safe to say that we all have that goal.

That said, these dictatorships, the terrorists, and the very tenets of Islam are among the things standing in the way of peace and progress in the Middle East and in the Muslim World. The conflict between the West and the terrorists will remain until either the terrorists give up or the West is reduced in strength to the point that it can no longer afford to interfere.

As it stands, right now, the terrorism angle is not working. It only draws more attention to that region and greater interference from the West. If the terrorists truly want to be free from our influence, their best and probably their only hope is to lay down their arms and to work toward detente with their enemies.

The only strategy that has thus far been, in any way, effective is the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Say what you will about the way the occupation has been handled and how it has unfolded versus our expectations, but the fact is that Afghanistan is no longer a training ground for terrorists and Iraq is no longer capable of threatening its neighbors, sending money to Hamas or Hezbollah, nor of producing weapons of mass destruction, whether they were there or not.

Both of these nations have the opportunity to get a taste of what living under a moderate, albeit Islamic-influenced, government can be like and in many areas of Iraq and most of Afghanistan, they are taking to it like a fish to water. While many trouble spots remain, there are entire cities, towns, and villages that are getting that first hit of democratic rule and free market economy. They are starting to be able to express themselves freely. Nobody likes the ongoing violence in Iraq, but change is not always easy and sometimes bad things have to happen before the ultimate good is realized.

So, again, if our nation is attacked with nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons and the attack kills, perhaps, hundreds of thousands of Americans, then I would not hesitate to strike back at whatever enemy that would be, even if it involves the destruction of Islam. If that is what it takes to protect this country, then I would do it. I think that is what Tom Tancredo is trying to say.
 
They don't. They believe that the world is 6000 years old and that evolution didn't happen. They're baffled by the Harun Yahya books, because they have no clue in what regards they're wrong. And misunderstanding/ actively misunderstanding evolution is only one facet of the endemic ignorance that should be actively reduced.

Well in one breath you identify the crux of your problem. You recognize that not all fundamentalists believe this way and you know very well what a small minority of fundamentalists believe. It may come as a shock to you, but the ID movement is only a very small, but very vocal part of the Christian movement. Very small.

So why do you focus so much on them?

I find it fascinating that here we have Jihadists who really, and I mean really, want to do us harm...and yet you feel the need to focus entirely on ID christian fundamentalism as if that were the greatest evil in all the world. Unbelieveable.



:lol: So, I guess you're not going to help, then, eh?

Wait a tic. Did you mention earlier that you were powerless yourself to facilitate this change? Then why do you expect me to 'help' as it were?

Me, I dont really care what the ID people believe. Thats their business. If they want to believe in that, fine, let them.

I love that your concept in this discussion with me is that ignorance among Westen Fundies needn't be reduced.

I say let them believe how they want to believe. /shrug. Should we take a stand like Germany and outlaw Scientology, for example, because its basically ignorant? Is that what you are advocating here?

Well, you need some way to reduce the number or intensity of the jihadists.

I got news for you. Listen carefully. They are not waging war against us because of INTELLIGENT DESIGN. :rolleyes: :crazyeye: :lol:

Saying that if we can only get the fundies to change their views on ID will start the end of terrorism is rather silly dont you think?
 
Would an attack on Muslim Holy cities be an attack on Saudi Arabia?
 
I think he should be impeached and puts on meds. What a psychopath.

S*** floats, and in America it rises to the top.
 
No, my statement was that if it were necessary to destroy Islam in order to stop attacks on our nation, using weapons of mass destruction, I would take that option, if I were President. Don't try to reword what I have said in order to fit your preconceived notions of me.

I'm not rewording anything, I'm taking your words, and applying logic to them, something you failed to do, multiple times.

The terrorists, on the other hand, have proven over the past decades that terrorist attacks do not, in fact, achieve the objectives of these groups. It seems, to me, a failed strategy.

The fact is that Western Civilization, at least to some extent, is intent on confronting the various issues that plague the Muslim World and maintain it in a state of constant chaos, violence, and degradation. The various nations and groups of the West have different views on just how to proceed with that mission, but I think that it is safe to say that we all have that goal.

Agreed.
That said, these dictatorships, the terrorists, and the very tenets of Islam are among the things standing in the way of peace and progress in the Middle East and in the Muslim World. The conflict between the West and the terrorists will remain until either the terrorists give up or the West is reduced in strength to the point that it can no longer afford to interfere.

There is no this or that (black and white) Middle Eastern problem. Neither situation is going to happen, and we shouldn't force it to happen.
As it stands, right now, the terrorism angle is not working. It only draws more attention to that region and greater interference from the West. If the terrorists truly want to be free from our influence, their best and probably their only hope is to lay down their arms and to work toward detente with their enemies.

Okay, except I doubt they'd work with their enemies, they'd most likely just stop committing terrorism.

The only strategy that has thus far been, in any way, effective is the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Say what you will about the way the occupation has been handled and how it has unfolded versus our expectations, but the fact is that Afghanistan is no longer a training ground for terrorists and Iraq is no longer capable of threatening its neighbors, sending money to Hamas or Hezbollah, nor of producing weapons of mass destruction, whether they were there or not.
Except Iraq is now a terrorist-breeding ground, and just gets more footage for the terrorists to recruit more of them. Say what you will about the war's progress, but more terrorists are being recruited by showing footage of US Soldiers killing Iraqis, whether they're terrorists, insurgents, or civilians.

So, again, if our nation is attacked with nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons and the attack kills, perhaps, hundreds of thousands of Americans, then I would not hesitate to strike back at whatever enemy that would be, even if it involves the destruction of Islam. If that is what it takes to protect this country, then I would do it. I think that is what Tom Tancredo is trying to say.

Okay, good for you. If you think Islam is what causes terrorism, that might work, but you'll still see terrorism. No, Tom Tancredo is saying that he'll bomb Mecca if attacked.
 
If that is the only thing that would stop our cities from being nuked, chem'ed, or bio'ed, then I would take that step to protect this nation, if I were President. Now, I realize that this scenario is highly unlikely, but nevertheless, there it is.

Aside from the previous posts about Christians (why must nearly every thread turn into a debate about Christianity?), what proof did Tancredo ever give that this gambit would actually work?

If anything, it'd give the terrorist groups and their supporters a major PR victory.
 
Nuking Medina and Mecca would be madness and an inexcusible slaughter. The man is off his rocker to suggest it.

The answer isn't strictly military, but it isn't just education either. We cannot just sit back and wait, doing nothing to protect ourselves while hoping some miraculous conversation takes place. We should reach out to those willing to listen while at the same time going after those who have gone the other route and decided that we're the "Great Satan" that needs to be destroyed.
 
Nuking Medina and Mecca would be madness and an inexcusible slaughter. The man is off his rocker to suggest it.

The answer isn't strictly military, but it isn't just education either. We cannot just sit back and wait, doing nothing to protect ourselves while hoping some miraculous conversation takes place. We should reach out to those willing to listen while at the same time going after those who have gone the other route and decided that we're the "Great Satan" that needs to be destroyed.

What the hell? Why am I more or less agreeing with you? :crazyeye:

It might be worth trying to persuade some of those that think I'm part of the Great Satan to lay down their arms and their checkbooks, but we shouldn't paralyze ourselves or throw all our eggs into that basket. If they're determined to fight, then we fight. Thankfully, for us and for these communities, they really are a small part of the population.

Tom Tancredo can sit back and prey for Jack Bauer to save him again.
 
What the hell? Why am I more or less agreeing with you? :crazyeye:

This can be scary the first time it happens, but have no fear. It's just a sign you're now on the road to a sensible world outlook. I'm thinking of beginning a 12-step program to help those who find themselves agreeing with me more and more. :D
 
This can be scary the first time it happens, but have no fear. It's just a sign you're now on the road to a sensible world outlook. I'm thinking of beginning a 12-step program to help those who find themselves agreeing with me more and more. :D

I'm in the denial stage. :p

Except on agreeing that Tancredo is moving further and further off the deep end.
 
Nuking Medina and Mecca would be madness and an inexcusible slaughter. The man is off his rocker to suggest it.

I think Tancredo's suggestion is just fine. And if you disagree with me, I'm going to go shoot up your church.

Spoiler :
I mean, WTH, eh? :)


MobBoss said:
Saying that if we can only get the fundies to change their views on ID will start the end of terrorism is rather silly dont you think?
I have yet to figure out how you can so massively misunderstand what people are trying to communicate. Your reply doesn't even comprehend the gist of what I am saying, never mind the specifics.
 
Problem is, this enemy is not disciplined enough to understand Northern Hemisphere concepts like "detente". These are driven by fiery passion and "romantic ideals" of martyrdom. In a sense, the enemy are like a group of drugged children on steroids, adept terrorists and demagogues, but not an administrate power to reckon with like the Russians. This enemy is to be rooted out like hardened criminals with intelligence and assertive policing, not by playing global deterrence chess games with them. This enemy has no style, no patience and no rules. It is better to root them out like a pest with an ongoing low key intelligence war, and sacrifice the terrorists individual human rights, rather than blow the scale out of proportions.

Setting up a deterrence concept as Tancredo suggests, is very telling about his location, in the middle of the Rocky Mountains. He may be close to NORAD, others aren't. His mountain men may survive a nuclear holocaust, and he seems to have no qualms about setting the West and East coasts up as a security screen for Boulder Colorady, less even, Europe.

By the way, last time I heard the name "Tancred", it had something to do with medieval knights and crusaders, and conceptually, he is still there.

I would be very surprised to learn if Sir Tancred in the mountains even own his own passport.
 
I think Tancredo's suggestion is just fine. And if you disagree with me, I'm going to go shoot up your church.

Spoiler :
I mean, WTH, eh? :)

:rotfl:
Man, I read this and was thinking "What the...El Mac said that?!" and then looked in the spoiler!
 
That man is utterly crazy.

Even if such an act weren't such an unexcusable atrocity, doing it would still not solve any problems. All it would do was kill millions of innocents, with a few 'guilty' ones among them.
It would just reinforce the exteremists in their belief the the US (and in its extension, the West) is the great satan an needs to be destroyed, so it'd probably doing more for terrorism than against it. As such it would lead to more moderates flocking into the arms of extremism.

I would say that people like this Tancredo are a much larger source of power for the jihadists than Medina or Mekka, because it reassures them that we really are the enemy.
 
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