Team GONG Embassy

[General_W]

Quick response from GONG…
Quite a bit more transparent this time:

Haha! Very good.

We actually would like all your techs in exchange for a beer, one of Bug's songs, and Gong goodwill but I don't think that currency is quite so valuable that you would be willing to make that deal.

Sorry about the axis reference. I guess that does sound a bit militaristic, and not in a good way. I just wanted to hurry things along because a deal cannot be made without both Team FREE's and The Council's cooperation via the, as you put it, Spybary. And it's not a secret that our path into the MIddle Ages w/ the Babes was right behind Team FREE and The Council. BTW, anyone seen SABER?

The bind is that our current agreement w/ the Babes does not allow us to consort w/ others on tech w/o running it past the Babes. The Spybary gives us the opportunity to skirt that provision and keep w/i the letter of the law while maybe not the spirit.

My fishing expedition is only to see if you're even interested in discussing the matter and what you might find worthwhile. I wasn't too involved in MPDG #1 so I didn't want to toss out any suggestions that would be insulting. Since Team Gong seems to consist of me, Daghie and Cane I'm pretty much flying solo on diplomacy. And Daghie only seems to show up to needle SABER. The one thing I did pick up from last game is that Team KISS would banter back and forth endlessly w/ the Nuts, getting nowhere; while we could all hear MIA's machinery clanking at a fevered pitch. I don't want to banter while Rome burns.

I guess in my mind we can offer lasting peace, agreement to not materially support an aggressor, and futures on luxury trades and technology. All of our attempts to map beyond our continent ended abruptly, repeatedly, so we have little to offer in the way of maps other than our own which I doubt Cane would agree to part with. But I can always ask.

How about Invention for peace for 80 turns & guaranteed luxury trading? For the peace agreement we'll pay you 25% of the current value of Invention, via installments. We're also open to paying more for the peace agreement should any other tech flow our way via the Spybary.

Well, there's a starting position off the top of my pointy-head. Of course if there's no deal to be had prior to Education then we'll need to wait until we're less encumbered to discuss scientific cooperation.

Thanks for the response.

Regards, jb

Soooo – best news is that this makes it sound VERY unlikely that the Great Library Elevator is a real threat. It's probably our best bet to not even bring it up and risk putting the idea in their head!

Their end proposal is a bit confusing, but if I'm reading it right, they're offering us:
1) A very long-term peace deal (better for them than us, with their 100k attempt)
2) A promise to not to materially support BABE in attack us
3) 25% of the current beaker value of Invention … 1188*.25=297 gold
4) Guaranteed luxury trading (which, if possible, they'd probably do anyway)

I'm less than impressed. If we want to keep negotiating, I'd suggest we counter with the following:

The Council:

• Gives Invention [indirectly]
• Agrees to peace for 40 turns

GONG:

• Pays 40% of the Monopoly Beaker Cost of Invention = 528 gold
• Agrees to not then sell or trade Invention to BABE. (may opt-out of this clause by paying 60% of the Monopoly Beaker cost on Invention = 792 gold)
• Promises to not materially support BABE in an attack on The Council or team FREE.

Now – I'm not 100% convinced that we should really trade invention to GONG… but I'm open to the idea if we get a truckload of gold out of it. (Remember, it'll have to be split with FREE)
If we offer this to GONG, we can point out to them that gold is of limited use to them in Feudalism as they already mentioned to us.

Thoughts? Other ideas?

 

[peter grimes]

If read closely, the letter explains that GONG cannot ask for Invention directly. They need FREE to trade it to us (or vise versa) so that they acquire it from the Great Spybrary. In return for this 'negligence', GONG will compensate us.

Of course, 'us' means The Council and FREE.

What do we gain? Some 200ish gold, while FREE gains the same amount?

From my perspective, we need to be finding ways to advance that DON'T include advancing FREE at the same time - otherwise, it's a wash. FREE is so massively ahead of us in score, and I'm having a hard time figuring out how we're going to overtake them!

We need more friends than enemies now, so it's certainly worth pursuing trades with GONG. But I'm not convinced yet that allowing them to learn Invention is the best path for us just now - even if it does net us ~300 gold.

 

[General_W]

Advancing without FREE is going to be tricky. We're basically counting on staying equal with them until our Commercial trait advantage can put us over the top in the Modern Era in a space-race fight.

As for GONG – if we trade Invention for gold, we'd be banking on the fact that we can take that gold and turn it into a greater number of beakers (thanks to the ability to do longer deficit research at top speed multiplied by our cheap libraries and universities) than GONG could if they kept the gold. Hence a short-term tech gain by GONG is translated into a longer-term tech advantage over them.

At least that's the theory in General_W's School of Diplomacy and International Chicanery

 

[Niklas]

At this particular point in time we don't really want to get ahead of FREE. We still need them in order to outtech the other teams, and will do so for a long time. The things that will set us apart later in the game is the things we need to focus on - such as Sistine, Cope's and Newton's. Having Bach's would have been grand as well, but we can't have everything.

... or can we? Would it be possible to strike a deal so that we can have GONG research Music Theory, giving it to us, and promising not to build Bach? If nothing else, suggesting a deal towards that end would force their hand regarding 100k, seeing if they would care to give up Bach or not. If we made such a deal, we would of course need to compensate FREE with money, but that's a small matter.

 

[General_W]

Proposed response:

Dear jb,

We appreciate the candor in your last letter. Your proposal isn’t very appealing to us – but it may very well serve as a starting point for more meaningful talks.

The super-long peace treaty we really see as more of a boon to you than to us. The Council Intelligence Agency has made note of your jump to Feudalism, whipping campaign, and rapid rise in culture. Let’s just say they put 2 and 2 together and came up with about 100k.

As for the gold you offered us on the tech – 25% of current/trade value seems awfully stingy, especially for a Feudal government that, as you’ve noted, has less need of gold.

We’ve crafted 3 Alternate Proposals for you to consider.

In all cases, our offer is the same – We’ll give the secret of Invention [indirectly, if needed], and agree to a guaranteed peace treaty for 40 turns.

In return, we’d like:
Option A:

• 40% of the Monopoly Beaker Cost of Invention = 528 gold
• Treaty agreement to not then sell or trade Invention to BABE.
• Treaty agreement to not materially support BABE in an attack on The Council or team FREE.

Option B:

• 60% of the Monopoly Beaker Cost of Invention = 792 gold
• NO restrictions on selling or trading Invention to BABE.
• Treaty agreement to not materially support BABE in an attack on The Council or team FREE.

Option C:

• GONG researches Music Theory immediately after getting Education, and then immediately upon discovery gives it to The Council
• GONG agrees to forgo building of JS Bach’s Cathedral
• Treaty agreement to not then sell or trade Music to BABE – but allowing trading of Invention
• Treaty agreement to not materially support BABE in an attack on The Council or team FREE.

Any of those catch your fancy?

All the best,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

So… I added option C in there for Niklas, but I’m really not to keen on it. I just don’t see how we’re going to divide that up with FREE… I guess offering them some amount of gold is probably good, as Niklas suggested… but how much gold is Bach’s worth to us?

I also have a hard time picture GONG going for it… so I’m not overly worried about it. IF they did go for it, it’d be pretty great in delaying their path to Astronomy…. Which is part of the reason I doubt they’ll go for it.

Thoughts? Edits?

My best friend is getting married today – so I’ll be off the grid for a while. I’m the best man I’ll most likely be around later today though… so go nuts on editing this while I’m gone!

 

[donsig]

How about bundling the clause about not materially aiding BABE (or anyone?) in an attack on FREE or THE COUNCIL with the peace treaty? I don't mean make this clause last only 40 turns but put it in the letter next to the peace treaty and take it out of the three options.

Not sure what MAAP II says about Bach's. I think we should ask for some gold in option C since we'd probably have to pay FREE for the right to funnel invention to GONG.

I would like to point out that it seems an intentional Elevator between BABE and GONG does look like a low risk thing right now. But it is still possible for either BABE or SABER to capture the Spybrary in the future. I for one will only feel safe when everyone had education or the Spybrary is burnt.

 

[General_W]

Ok – we really need to get this moving.

First my responses to Donsig:

How about bundling the clause about not materially aiding BABE (or anyone?) in an attack on FREE or THE COUNCIL with the peace treaty? I don't mean make this clause last only 40 turns but put it in the letter next to the peace treaty and take it out of the three options.

I see what you’re saying, but it would be awkward to do it that way. It’s structured as “we give” and then GONG gives option A, B, or C. Combining something GONG gives with what we give outside of the 3 options has the potential to make them

Asking them to not aid ANYONE in attacking us seems unnecessary – but I have no objection to rewording that.

Not sure what MAAP II says about Bach's. I think we should ask for some gold in option C since we'd probably have to pay FREE for the right to funnel invention to GONG.

MAAP II says that we won’t be researching any optional tech wonders, but if we manage to get one, we’ll reach a mutually satisfactory agreement on what to do with it.
Bottom line: FREE has to agree to any plan.

I would like to point out that it seems an intentional Elevator between BABE and GONG does look like a low risk thing right now. But it is still possible for either BABE or SABER to capture the Spybrary in the future. I for one will only feel safe when everyone had education or the Spybrary is burnt.

Couldn’t more.

I’d like to see this letter go out tomorrow or Wednesday (USA-ST) at the latest.

Version 1.2

Dear jb,

We appreciate the candor in your last letter. Your proposal isn’t very appealing to us – but it may very well serve as a starting point for more meaningful talks.

The super-long peace treaty we really see as more of a boon to you than to us. The Council Intelligence Agency has made note of your jump to Feudalism, whipping campaign, and rapid rise in culture. Let’s just say they put 2 and 2 together and came up with about 100k.

As for the gold you offered us on the tech – 25% of current/trade value seems awfully stingy, especially for a Feudal government that, as you’ve noted, has less need of gold.

We’ve crafted 3 Alternate Proposals for you to consider.

In all cases, our offer is the same – We’ll give the secret of Invention [indirectly, if needed], and agree to a guaranteed peace treaty for 40 turns.

In return, we’d like:
Option A:

• 40% of the Monopoly Beaker Cost of Invention = 528 gold
• Treaty agreement to not then sell or trade Invention to BABE.
• Treaty agreement to not attack or materially support anyone in an attack on The Council or team FREE for 40 turns.

Option B:

• 60% of the Monopoly Beaker Cost of Invention = 792 gold
• NO restrictions on selling or trading Invention to BABE.
• Treaty agreement to not attack or materially support anyone in an attack on The Council or team FREE for 40 turns.

Option C:

• GONG researches Music Theory immediately after getting Education, and then immediately upon discovery gives it to The Council
• GONG agrees to forgo building of JS Bach’s Cathedral
• Treaty agreement to not then sell or trade Music to BABE – but allowing trading of Invention
• Treaty agreement to not attack or materially support anyone in an attack on The Council or team FREE for 40 turns.

Any of those catch your fancy?

All the best,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

I further prose that we BCC FREE on this letter and send the following quick note to FREE as well:

Dear FREE allies,

As you can see – we’ve taken your advice and made use of the miracle of the BCC. You can read GONG’s letter to us, and our response to it.
Rest assured, if GONG responds favorably to any of the options we’re offering them, we’ll split the rewards with you.

We believe the gold would be a great boon for both of us. It may help GONG in the short-term… but they’re likely to trade with BABE for Invention anyway. Plus, thanks to our scientific traits, we can turn any gold from GONG into a much larger number of beakers, giving us both an advantage in the long-run… and this game is going to be a “long run game!”

If GONG happens to go for the Music/Bach option, which we think is unlikely, I’m sure we can be creative about a way to split that benefit.

All the best,
Your brothers in Blueish,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

Thoughts? Approvals?

 

[cubsfan6506]

I like option c. Lets give them that one. I don't like giving them the choice.

 

[Paul#42]

I don't like the idea to build Bach's... I'm not wonder addicted enough for multiplayer I guess

But I like the thought that GONG annoys BABE by "trading" for invention (if they do and it's not a bluff ).
And I like the thought to commit GONG to research something useless.

And I like the idea to do any trade with GONG.

And I like the idea to offer them three options. Makes them feel better and gives us further stuff to think about when we try to understand their decision

And finally I like all three options.

 

[Niklas]

I think they are very good letters.

 

[donsig]

I concur. They can be sent as far as I'm concerned.

 

[peter grimes]

Yep. I'm fine with all.

 

[sirdanilot]

I'm not sure if we should even give them the option to sell or even give the tech to free, but I'm sure there is a very good reason for that so go ahead and send it!

 

[cubsfan6506]

I don't like the idea to build Bach's... I'm not wonder addicted enough for multiplayer I guess

But I like the thought that GONG annoys BABE by "trading" for invention (if they do and it's not a bluff ).
And I like the thought to commit GONG to research something useless.

And I like the idea to do any trade with GONG.

And I like the idea to offer them three options. Makes them feel better and gives us further stuff to think about when we try to understand their decision

And finally I like all three options.

It doesn't matter if Bachs is worthless to us. It's one of the most valuable wonders in the game to them. I think it has what 6 culture per trun. Over the course of 400 turn (Without it even growing.)It is over 2400 culture.

 

[zyxy]

I also like to make a deal with GONG, in an attempt to drive a wedge between GONG and BABE. But I am not convinced that GONG/BABE is not playing a game with us, i.e., pretending to be drifting apart to make us show our cards. For one thing, they could be trying to learn the nature of the bonds between FREE and us.

I thought GONG was weak compared to us? How does that rhyme with their so-called hordes of Gallics?

In option A I would also exclude a trade with SABER. Same for option C.

Option C needs a clause that the MT research should be fast, i.e., within 15 turns or so.

I want the gold payment in immediate exchange for the tech, and I would mention this explicitly. I don't like GONG's idea of paying in installments.

 

[Niklas]

It's a common misconception that the best way to get 100k culture is to build wonders. It almost never pays off, there are far faster ways. Bach's is 6 cpt for 600 shields, that's 100s/c. In comparison a temple gives 2 cpt for only 30 shields (they are religious), that's only 15s/c. And you can only have one Bach's whereas you can have as many temples as you have cities... and from the map we just got from FREE, it seems like the GONGers have ICSed like crazy! So yes, I find it increasingly likely that GONG is trying for 100k. The Celts are the perfect civ for it too, and Feudalism... everything indicates 100k.

But regarding Bach's, I often find it invaluable when doing tech games. It's the single best wonder for a tech game IMO, except of course those that boost research directly (Cope, Newton, SETI, Internet, ToE). When your towns start growing towards 20, every single extra happy face you can get is really valuable, and particularly so with a wonder that gives +1 content in all towns, even the semi-corrupt ones that might otherwise need a higher slider level.

However, I find it highly unlikely that GONG would go for that option. They would research a tech that costs more for them (since Invention would be researched at a non-monopoly rate, 1056 beakers, against the 1200 beakers for Music Theory). But no harm in trying.

 

[General_W]

very well said Niklas. Excellent analysis.

I'm going to make the changes zyxy suggested [expanding the trade restrictions to everyone], and send these off.
(I don't think we should put a time limit on their researching Music Theory… if they want to stall research there while we pull further and further ahead, so much the better! They can't trade Music theory around anyway.)

Good discussion everyone!

Version 1.3
Title: Re: Thanks for Theology… Care to deal for the lower tier?

Spoiler :

Dear jb,

We appreciate the candor in your last letter. Your proposal isn’t very appealing to us – but it may very well serve as a starting point for more meaningful talks.

The super-long peace treaty we really see as more of a boon to you than to us. The Council Intelligence Agency has made note of your jump to Feudalism, whipping campaign, and rapid rise in culture. Let’s just say they put 2 and 2 together and came up with about 100k.

As for the gold you offered us on the tech – 25% of current/trade value seems awfully stingy, especially for a Feudal government that, as you’ve noted, has less need of gold.

We’ve crafted 3 Alternate Proposals for you to consider.

In all cases, our offer is the same – We’ll give the secret of Invention [indirectly, if needed], and agree to a guaranteed peace treaty for 40 turns.

In return, we’d like:
Option A:

• 40% of the Monopoly Beaker Cost of Invention = 528 gold
• Treaty agreement to not then sell or trade Invention to anyone.
• Treaty agreement to not attack or materially support anyone in an attack on The Council or team FREE for 40 turns.

Option B:

• 60% of the Monopoly Beaker Cost of Invention = 792 gold
• NO restrictions on selling or trading Invention to anyone.
• Treaty agreement to not attack or materially support anyone in an attack on The Council or team FREE for 40 turns.

Option C:

• GONG researches Music Theory immediately after getting Education, and then immediately upon discovery gives it to The Council
• GONG agrees to forgo building of JS Bach’s Cathedral
• Treaty agreement to not then sell or trade Music to anyone – but allowing trading of Invention
• Treaty agreement to not attack or materially support anyone in an attack on The Council or team FREE for 40 turns.

Any of those catch your fancy?

All the best,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

And the note sent to FREE:
Title: GONG Diplomacy Update

Spoiler :

Dear FREE allies,

As you can see – we’ve taken your advice and made use of the miracle of the BCC. You can read GONG’s letter to us, and our response to it.
Rest assured, if GONG responds favorably to any of the options we’re offering them, we’ll split the rewards with you.

We believe the gold would be a great boon for both of us. It may help GONG in the short-term… but they’re likely to trade with BABE for Invention anyway. Plus, thanks to our scientific traits, we can turn any gold from GONG into a much larger number of beakers, giving us both an advantage in the long-run… and this game is going to be a “long run game!”

If GONG happens to go for the Music/Bach option, which we think is unlikely, I’m sure we can be creative about a way to split that benefit.

All the best,
Your brothers in Blueish,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

Both have been SENT!

 

[General_W]

Had a short chat with jb from GONG, and then got this letter from him.
Nothing substantial in the chat that wasn't in this letter – I was just keeping up the smiling face The Council presents to the world. (I generally don't post those friendly chit-chats, hopefully that's ok)

Hiya General_W,

As I noted in our IM, the proposals have been posted and we'll see what the other Gongers are up for.

Glad that you found the offer lacking yet a starting point. Seems like I might be cut out for this job after all.

I applaud your math. [note from G_W: he's referring to our "put 2 and 2 together and got 100k" comment] It shouldn't be a secret given the nature of the info we can glean from the saves, which for the record I have always hated, but you were the first to notice our improvements. The Pyramids and Feud go well w/ each other but the populace is getting mighty pissed off. No shocker there.

Because of the nature of our builds Option C seems the most appealing to me but I'm sure Cane will set me right.

Best Regards to The Council.

jb

Anyway – Option C! I wouldn't have guessed!
Guess we better start thinking about what we want to offer FREE in exchange for letting us build BACH.... just in case KillerCane agrees with jb!
Like Niklas, I tend to view that wonder as mighty handy for a science victory attempt.

 

[cubsfan6506]

Tell them they shouldn't of psst off gong. Seriously though one of our wonders seems fair and just. Lets offer them Sistine's.

 

[General_W]

I was thinking more along the lines of 100 gold? 200 gold?
Really, the way MAAP II is structured, you could look at us giving FREE gold as moving money from one pocket into the other… but I doubt FREE will think of that!

I have another wild idea though… what if we offered to build the Theory of Evolution for the Alliance? I imagine we'll have a MAPP III deal with FREE to take us through the Industrial Ages – we could just offer:
"as a part of a MAPP III deal, The Council agrees to take on the duty of building the 600 shield Theory of Evolution, then sharing the 2 bonus techs with FREE independent of whatever MAAP III tech arrangement we work out. FREE would save 600 shields and enjoy the benefit of two free techs without having to match them with any beakers in trade."

I personally think 600 shields would be a bargain for the +2 in every city.
(or maybe that should be 1,200 shields… counting that we still have to build Bach!)

Anyone else have any ideas?