Tech Balance 1.18

[Leoreth]

Yeah, the main conclusion here is that tech speed is too slow. Did you play with the recent changes that reduce inflation and stabilize China?

Korea is a meme that should not be taken seriously for these tech balancing tests

I would prefer not to. I don't disagree with the observation, but it's still useful to know how far Korea is out of balance with the rest to scale them back correctly.

 

[AOS9001]

Did you play with the recent changes that reduce inflation and stabilize China?

Yes, I started these after applying the latest updates. I’ll keep including Korea results in future reports.

 

[CivEnthusiast]

I rolled up 5 Prussia starts on the 600 AD scenario. As instructed, they're all normal difficulty, normal speed. The scoreboards and saves are attached if you just want to see those, game-specific observations are in the spoiler tags. The paterns I noticed will follow.

Spoiler Prussia 1 :

View attachment 709108
Ottomans and Hindu Mughals topping the scoreboard are a common theme. Amsterdam is the protestant holy city in every save, indicating no Catholics researched academia by 1580.
England has a choice of Economics, Scientific Method, Urban Planning, and Horticulture.
Vikings are researching Academia, I had to switch to them to learn this and they instantly collapsed, oof.
Spain hasn't even finished the medieval techs.

Spoiler Prussia 2 :

View attachment 709109
Spain managed to conquer the Incas and Aztecs, but still couldn't take Cordoba. They can research Academia, Heritage, or Combined Arms.
Hindu Mughals in second place, they have most of the second Renaissance tech row filled out.
France has most of the second row and is getting to work on the third.
Korea is one of the tech leaders along with Mughals and France, no surprise there. A dead China let them grab Liaoyang.
This game has one of the saddest Russias I've ever seen.

Spoiler Prussia 3 :

View attachment 709110
Ottomans, Hindu Mughals, and France are in the top three for score, which is probably right where they should be in 1700, but there's a few oddities. The Byzantines are alive, Ethiopia conquered the Indie city near Lake Chad, Dutch Bogata...
The Ottoman high score is only from their land, they've only got three techs in the first Renaissance row and are researching combined arms.
The Mughals are in a slightly better tech state, though behind France too.
France has four techs in the second row and is about to get three in the third row.
The rest of the world seems to be working on the first or second row of techs, or further behind for the unfortunates.

Spoiler Prussia 4 :

View attachment 709111
Ottomans are working on their second row of techs, and have all techs in prior rows.
Spain is working on its second row of techs for the era, but is missing Academia. Aztecs and Incas are alive, so whoever met them first must have run into those war galleys the both love building in recent git updates.
France is working on the third row but is missing the "peaceful" techs from the second row and doesn't even have Heritage.
The Dutch are a bit ahead of them and might even be tech leader.

Spoiler Prussia 5 :

View attachment 709112
Buddhist(!) Mughals in the lead by score, but have neglected military tech for the 'peaceful' tech the Europeans are mostly ignoring. They're in the second row of techs but have backtracked to firearms now that the French conquerors have arrived. When I switched to them I was barraged with the AI cancelled trades and open borders, lol.
France rushed Replaceable Parts as usual, at the cost of just about everything else. Optics, Academia, and Heritage are their options.
The Dutch aren't far behind France in tech, they've got the majority of the second row and are working on the third row.
The Ottomans have city ruins instead of Constantinople, denying them an excellent city. This may be why they're researching finance in 1700. Despite their population and wealth, they're getting woefully behind on tech. Kinda realistic, actually.
The Moors, like the Mughals, are neglecting military techs for peaceful techs. They're teching towards geology but don't have firearms. They're definitely a tech contender.
Portugal is also a contender, and has vassalized Spain. I scream.

The general patterns I noticed:

• France and the Netherlands are the typical European tech leaders, being a row or two ahead of the rest
• Portugal, Italy, England, Poland, and the HRE are a bit behind the curve but not painfully so, Spain is either a global power (2/5 games) or laughing stock (3/5 games), there's no in-between (look how they massacred my boy)
• Amsterdam was the Protestant holy city in every single game, because...
• Europeans in general ignore the "peaceful" techs like Academia and Heritage until they're forced to research them, the Islamic and Asian civilizations are the opposite, which I suppose makes sense for gameplay
• Ottomans and Mughals are generally beasts by score, military size, population, and wealth, but are starting to fall behind in techs by 1700, I think they're in a good place
• Moors are crazy strong in all regards if they keep Cordoba, which they often do, typically being in the "second rank" of techers like Portugal and Italy
• Japan is just starting to catch up to the Euros in 1700, maybe a little too soon, because in my later-era games they're often snatching secular wonders by the 1700s and 1800s, being a row or two of techs ahead
• Russia has a tendency towards being backwards (even for Russia) in 1700
• Not a tech but the Mughals resistance towards being Muslim is notable.

That's what I've got for now.

And each and every single time in all these I observe the AI Russia doing zero efforts at colonizing Siberia, rip

 

[AOS9001]

And each and every single time in all these I observe the AI Russia doing zero efforts at colonizing Siberia, rip

Russia is really struggling. I don’t think the AI knows how to handle the consant barb spawns. Every time I look at Russia the land is undeveloped or pillaged. In my Prussia starts Russia only had a few Renaissance techs, and sometimes hadn’t even finished the medeival techs.

It’s awkward becacuse in the hands of a player, Russia is unstoppable once you get your core developed and you start expanding east. But the AI can’t even get to Kazan by 1700 half the time. How can it be balanced?

 

[CivEnthusiast]

Russia is really struggling. I don’t think the AI knows how to handle the consant barb spawns. Every time I look at Russia the land is undeveloped or pillaged. In my Prussia starts Russia only had a few Renaissance techs, and sometimes hadn’t even finished the medeival techs.

It’s awkward becacuse in the hands of a player, Russia is unstoppable once you get your core developed and you start expanding east. But the AI can’t even get to Kazan by 1700 half the time. How can it be balanced?

Possibly looking at how the balance for Russia worked in 1.17, although it was on a smaller map and having no taiga land

 

[AOS9001]

Russia also doesn’t do much on the 1700 scenario, and is in fact so unstable I sometimes see Ruthenia respawning before the USA is even on the map. This too is more worthy of its own thread, like Spain’s woes.

Once I’m off work today I think I’ll run some 3000 BC games again, since I think the 600 AD patterns are now obvious.

 

[Lokki242]

Oop, sorry if my previous thread wasn't hitting the right intel you needed! Will start running like tests in your preferred format soon, been busy as of late (and also finally had the chance to play Shadow of the Erdtree which took me over for the last month).

 

[Leoreth]

All information is useful, I am just trying to channel things into more manageable streams.

 

[AOS9001]

I rolled up some Korea starts on 3000 BC, with a quick autoplay to 1 AD. Nothing nearly as conclusive the 600 AD runs here.

Spoiler Korea 1 :

Rome number 1 with a 4/5th complete Roman Empire, this is a common trend. They've just hit the last row of classical techs with Politics.
China has Aesthetics and Philosophy and is working on Engineering, but is not in a position to even start working on the third row of classical techs.
Persia is beelining Fortification, and has the top two classical tech lines completed (war tech obsession shows itself for the first time in history?)
The Kushans have an unsurprising amount of Classical techs researched. They have Navigation, Medicine, and Law left in the first two rows, then they'll have nothing but the third row to research. I can see why they become tech leader if I kept playing to Arabia's spawn.
Greece made it to the medieval era in 150 BC by discovering fortification, but soon got eaten by Rome.
Babylon made it to Currency before dying, presumably to Persia.

Spoiler Korea 2 :

Rome and China in the lead again, though Rome is still conquering Celts and moving two stacks east, presumably against the indies in the Levant. Rome has Engineering, Currency, and Law as their most advanced techs.
China is a bit behind them, with only Aesthetics. They're going for Engineering, but need to finish Cement.
Kushans have the majority of the second row of classical techs, missing only Navigation from their first row.
Persia's not doing as great, only starting on Steel. I don't think they ever expanded into Mespotamia, there's no trace of their culture in the indy cities there.
Greece once again made it to Fortification in 130 BC before dying. They really want those trebuchets. They were in a position to research Ethics too, as early as 420 BC.

Spoiler Korea 3 :

Rome number 1, at war with Celts and Egypt but its stacks just appear to be sitting in Egypt and running away from Celts last city... And Anatolia is depopulated. Looks like Greece ignored it. Technologically, Rome is about in the same place as the last two games.
China is also in roughly the same technological place. They've got the Great Wall up, but that's not doing anything to stop the Yue indies.
Persia once again seems to have not gotten into Mespotamia, they're beelining the weapons techs again.
Greece tried to rush Fortification but didn't make it. Rome must have attacked early.

Spoiler Korea 4 :

Look, no China! It seems Shu barbarians collapsed them very early, they only built three cities (there's roads to the Yangtze mouth that imply a fourth city, but no ruins).
Rome conquered Egypt for once. They've got Navigation left in their first row of Classical techs, three second row techs, and are researching Politics.
Persia has Mesopotamia now, but they're missing most of the second row Classical techs and have just begun Steel.
Greece didn't even make it to Medicine or Steel before dying, Nobility is as far as they got.
Kushans have just finished Medicine.

Only four runs because I wasn't sure if I was learning anything of note. China's still struggling with barbs and Yue indies, which we already knew about, and that's not really a tech issue. 3000 BC to 1 AD just might not be enough time for discrepancies to start showing, especially with Kushans, who are suspected of being overtuned right now.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

I'll be contributing in detail at some point but meanwhile allow me to pretty much corroborate @AOS9001 broad observations and agree heartily with "the main conclusion here is that tech speed is too slow".

 

[Leoreth]

Only four runs because I wasn't sure if I was learning anything of note. China's still struggling with barbs and Yue indies, which we already knew about, and that's not really a tech issue. 3000 BC to 1 AD just might not be enough time for discrepancies to start showing, especially with Kushans, who are suspected of being overtuned right now.

I think Greece is also worth thinking about. They seem to reliably die to Rome, but if they didn't they look like a problem. Their tech speed seems very high.

 

[Apple111111]

I think Greece is also worth thinking about. They seem to reliably die to Rome, but if they didn't they look like a problem. Their tech speed seems very high.

I actually don’t mind Greece being a bit ahead in tech as it’s fairly fitting historically. The fact that they reliably get the Oracle is what pushes that advantage, I believe.

The main problem is when Greece gets Christianity before they collapse, which is unrealistic and has weird long-term effects like Athens as the holy city for orthodoxy (Not that bad, since it’s not to far from Constantinople), or Alexander spreading the word of God into Mesopotamia (Kinda bad, since it tends to linger there for a bit too long)

 

[Leoreth]

The issue is not them being a bit ahead in tech in the time window they usually survive in but how far they would be ahead in case they do survive longer.

 

[AOS9001]

Had time to run a 3000 BC game before work. It seems... more or less the same as the 600 AD scenario?

Spoiler 1200 :

Most civs are on the first row of medieval techs, or starting on the second row. China and Korea are on the third row.

Spoiler 1500 :

Korea, as usual, is the first to discover Firearms, Logistics, Statecraft, Heritage, and Horticulture. They're really taking off now, when they were only a few techs ahead in 1200.
China has Logistics, and is going for Exploration so they can get Economics. Humanities is the only medieval tech they're missing.
Mughals are going for Heritage, Poland and Ottomans are going for Firearms, but they are still medieval for now. Ottomans don't even have Patronage or Education, which is a pattern we've seen before.
Sweden has Firearms already and is going for Logistics. They're missing the bottom four techs of the medieval third row, another pattern we've seen before.
Russia is unstable because they have -9 from losing battles to barbs, they really don't know how to handle the horse archers and Keshiks coming off the steppe. Tempted to make a Russia thread to compile all the problems they're having.

3000 BC seems to put civs in the same situation they are in the 600 AD scenario, which is kind of remarkable from a game balance perspective. The world is still generally behind where it should be, by a few techs less than in 600 AD scenarios. Of course, this is just one game, more testing will be needed, which I can't do until later.

 

[AOS9001]

I ran another 5 Iran games in the background while doing my actual job, now let's look at the results. This time it's a 3000 BC to 1500 AD run.

Spoiler Iran 6 :

To no one's surprise, the Mughals are Buddhist and leading the scoreboard. However, they've only teched up to Heritage and are missing Printing and Cartography from medieval techs.
Ethiopia has made a surprise appearance in second place, AND they were the first ones to research Exploration in 1455! The only thing out of the ordinary they have going on is a size 12 Tripoli and ownership of Yemen.
The Mongols are absent but they made it to Logistics in 1410 and Statecraft in 1455.
The Moors have publicly humiliated Spain by taking Tarragona, vassalizing them, and making them convert to Islam. They dominate North Africa, but are still filling out the last row of medieval techs.
France is doing great, they've got every medieval tech but Humanities (typical), and they have researched Firearms, Logistics, Statecraft, and are working on Combined Arms.
Italy has all medieval techs, and the entire first row of Renaissance techs except for the bottom row. They're getting close to Optics.
Holy Rome is researching Academia, they're going to make it on time for a historically timed Reformation, wow!
Sweden was first to Firearms in 1455.
Russia remains pathetic, barely into the third row of medieval techs. They can't get past Kazan. To be fair, Russia did not get past Kazan IRL until Ivan IV's reign later in the century, but they haven't even built a new city in the relatively safe European Arctic, which was firmly settled by Novgorodian traders and fur trappers by 1500.
The turn ended itself while switching civs and China respawned with late medieval techs in 1505. They were close to the top of the scoreboard.

Spoiler Iran 7 :

Once again, Buddhist Mughals on top. Let's check out their techs, Korea's alive so that means they're probably doing their thing- oh, oh dear.

Rome got Theology and founded Islam (in Carthage) in 300!
Byzantium had Statecraft in 1270!
Kushans researched half the medieval tech tree by 560, the year they got Gunpowder!
The Mongols were first to Finance, Exploration, Logistics, and Economics by 1455!
The Mughals have Civil Liberties, which they got in 1490.
The Ottomans (Orthodox) had Firearms in 1440.
If you look at the save, you can see Spain has eaten the Moors AND Portugal, in revenge for last game's humiliation. There aren't even any city ruins in North Africa. This hasn't done them any good, as they lack the entire bottom row of medieval techs and most of the second from bottom row. They haven't even reached Gunpowder in 1500 despite owning all of Iberia and some of southern France. Speaking of, France is collapsed.
Switching to Korea ended the turn and they were first to Horticulture.
China respawned in 1505 (again), with only Gunpowder and Companies from the third row of medieval techs. Hey Leoreth, can player China get that delicious expanded core after 1500 too?

Spoiler Iran 8 :

This world looks a little more normal, except for the rarity of Muslim Mughals. That's the second time in eight games I've seen them keep Islam. Their two research options are Paper and Firearms, which tells you all you need to know about their tech situation.
China is worse off than their respawn last game, missing the bottom three techs of the second medieval row. They got Gunpowder first in 1120 though.
Italy got Heritage in 1495.
Sweden got Firearms in 1465.
Ottomans got Cartography first in 1450.
Mongols made it to Logistics in 1430.
Spain is teching okay, despite not owning Cordoba, because they have Bordeaux and Marseille. Lol. No Paper or Doctrine, but they'll have Firearms soon.

Spoiler Iran 9 :

I'm just gonna post the techs again, it's one of THOSE games.

Greeks got Ethics in 190 BC!
Kushans got Gunpowder in 770, Doctrine in 900, and Statecraft in 1210! In fact the Kushans got pretty much every medieval tech first, and lived long past their expiration date. What is going on with these guys?
France got Firearms in 1360! And Exploration in 1460, and Economics in 1480 (not pictured). Carpet bombing their food-rich core with cottages really helps, I don't understand why Holy Rome doesn't do this too.
Mongols had Logistics in 1400.
The Mughals getting Civil Liberties (not pictured) in 1490 is small potatoes compared to all that. They're Muslim again, which gives them a 30% chance of staying Muslim in the current state of the game.
Mega Ottomans rule from Pontic Steppe to Nubia, and from the Adriatic to the Persian Gulf. They have Firearms but are missing Finance.
Spain has been humiliated again, losing Santiago to the Moors somehow. They're at war with Portugal too, which has slowed both civs' tech rates it seems.
Russia tried to expand beyond Kazan but instantly lost Tura-Tau to barb keshiks. They're working towards Statecraft but only have two third row medieval techs.

Spoiler Iran 10 :

Korea got conquerors on Inca. Cursed timeline.
Kushans got Ethics in 150 AD, which is good and balanced. They don't appear in the tech tree firsts after this.
Korea made it to a lot of first techs in the final row of medieval techs, plus Logistics and Statecraft.
Hindu Mughals once again face a choice between Paper and Firearms.
France's cottage carpet bombing has supercharged them again, they've got Firearms and Exploration, but no Humanities or Judiciary.
Spain, barely into the second row of medieval techs and only having Gunpowder from the third row, once again is publicly humiliated, having lost Alicante and Taragona to the Moors and forced to vassalize to them, who have a size 17 city in Morocco with four orchard resources in its fat cross. Maybe their UP is a bit strong...
Portugal has done something I haven't seen once in these Iran runs: it has a city outside of Europe/North Africa! They founded Elmina in 1495. However, they're missing the bottom two techs in the second and third medieval rows.
Russia is bottled up in their core, Minsk is indy, Poland took Kazan, and France took Kiev (this is actually pretty common for some reason, France loves to take Kiev even though it's way outside their stability map). Once again the AI is going for Statecraft.

So, what are the trends this time?

• In general, the word is slightly ahead of where it would be in the 600 AD scenario. Iran is not the only guaranteed civ to be in the Renaissance in 1500, from a 3000 BC start. Is it because Rome developed Europe and Persians the Middle East earlier? Is it because more advanced civs from Antiquity survived long enough to trade techs? Earlier spawn dates for certain civs? Regardless, the world is still a little behind where it should be. Spain should be sailing west, Portugal should be sailing east, Holy Rome should be coming up on that Reformation... Rarely do we see this by 1500 though. In fact, there is one Portuguese African colony in these 10 games, and one instance of the HRE going for Academia around 1500 in these 10 games. France at least went for Exploration once.
• Something is seriously wack with the Kushans. Why are they teching so well? They might be even better than Korea at screwing up tech rates.
• Greece could do with either a tech rate nerf or a disinclination from Ethics so they don't found Orthodoxy too early.
• France's land is extremely strong for cottage spam, Germany should be too but fails to build many cottages at all. Despite this, France is on occasion gobbled up by Germany and Spain in the middle ages. If France can cottage bomb, they'll be competing for tech leader in Europe. If France gets bullied before they catch up to the other newly spawning Europeans, they'll collapse.
• China is frequently collapsing around the Mongol spawn and then coming back. If you recall my Prussia runs, though, you'll see China only exists in 2/5 games by 1700. I don't think their stability problem is solved yet. I didn't see the tech superpower China other people have mentioned in any run, either.
• Spain suffers, Russia suffers. Something is wrong with their AIs, or settler maps, or war maps, or something. These should be two of the most expansive civs in the game, but in the majority of my runs they just turtle, helpless to confront the Moors or steppe barbarians, falling further and further behind in the tech race.
• I personally think the best path forward is a general tech rate buff to all civs, with nerfs to specific overperforming civs like Greece, Kushans, and Korea. Other certain civs need a more in-depth look at their failings at a later time.
• I wonder how much civic choice is playing into all this? I saw lots of caste systems all over the world in my games, and as @SultanRedSnake posted about here, this might be one of the culprits slowing down tech rates across the board.

 

[Leoreth]

China is frequently collapsing around the Mongol spawn and then coming back. If you recall my Prussia runs, though, you'll see China only exists in 2/5 games by 1700. I don't think their stability problem is solved yet. I didn't see the tech superpower China other people have mentioned in any run, either.

You mean they collapse independently of the Mongol conquest? Maybe it is also important to make them respawn more reliably.

Spain suffers, Russia suffers. Something is wrong with their AIs, or settler maps, or war maps, or something. These should be two of the most expansive civs in the game, but in the majority of my runs they just turtle, helpless to confront the Moors or steppe barbarians, falling further and further behind in the tech race.

Yes, the AI might be part of the issue, it is generally very cautious about settling when threatened. Spain needs to be put in a position to generally be able to conquer Cordoba and actually do so before it is worth further examination. With Russia, I was initially worried about them expanding into their land too quickly, with the barbarian pressure intended to put some limits on that. I think I overdid it though. So I think the barbarian pressure should be lowered, especially between their spawn and like ~1500. Other barbarians could be limited more to when Russia is actually present in Siberia instead of crippling them before getting there.

I personally think the best path forward is a general tech rate buff to all civs, with nerfs to specific overperforming civs like Greece, Kushans, and Korea. Other certain civs need a more in-depth look at their failings at a later time.

Agreed, these three would be my main individual targets.

I also agree that the overall tech rate should be increased, but I am unsure about the scope and the right tool to achieve it. Should it primarily target the tech rate in the medieval era? The fact that outcomes are roughly similar between 3000 BC and 600 AD starts suggests that the classical era mostly works (not accounting for those civs mentioned above). One approach could be to only look at medieval tech costs and shave e.g. an average 10-15% off their costs.

Have you looked at individual civs and their upkeep costs at all? That is the other thing I am wondering about. For the average European civ like France or HRE, how much of their income at 100% gold goes into upkeep? Is city maintenance the driving factor or inflation? I messed with both of them for a bit and I want to rule out that it's excessive costs causing the slow research.

I wonder how much civic choice is playing into all this? I saw lots of caste systems all over the world in my games, and as @SultanRedSnake posted about here, this might be one of the culprits slowing down tech rates across the board.

I will definitely look into this. In the base game positive civic health was associated with Environmentalism, which is a late game civic. It's possible that the AI evaluation is programmed to emphasise this effect too much to ensure adoption of that civic. At least the evaluation should account for actual health problems - it's possible the current implementation simply assumes unhealth to be ubiquitous due to the assumed late game context. It's absolutely possible that this civic has an impact on tech rates.

Actually, speaking of civics, how much Republic have you observed in medieval civilizations?

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Spain needs to be put in a position to generally be able to conquer Cordoba and actually do so before it is worth further examination.

I'm presently working on solutions and will present my findings shortly.

ave you looked at individual civs and their upkeep costs at all? That is the other thing I am wondering about.

This is helpful. I will look into as well.

Actually, speaking of civics, how much Republic have you observed in medieval civilizations?

More than in previous versions, at least. Some switch shortly after spawn then eventually go to Monarchy (Spain, Moors, England). Portugal seems to stick with it for a while. The more conspicuous civic is Citizenship, which from a snapshop of an autorun I happen to have going at this moment, in 1210 23 out of 30 civs are running it and this represents what I'd consider typical.

 

[Leoreth]

Republic is quite popular among Medieval civs, almost as popular as Caste System.

More than in previous versions, at least. Some switch shortly after spawn then eventually go to Monarchy (Spain, Moors, England). Portugal seems to stick with it for a while. The more conspicuous civic is Citizenship, which from a snapshop of an autorun I happen to have going at this moment, in 1210 23 out of 30 civs are running it and this represents what I'd consider typical.

Good to know. This might be equally or even more impactful than Caste System blocking Manorialism. Specifically I should have a look into how the different cottage level yield changes impact AI improvement choices, it might be that it evaluates based on the Town value rather than just the Cottage value when choosing an improvement. This is generally smart, but might be the explanation for some civs "refusing" to cottage their grasslands.

I don't think Citizenship is that impactful unless someone discovers that unit upkeep is the driving factor for upkeep costs in Europe. Whenever I looked into it, it was distinctly dwarfed by city maintenance.

Obviously both Citizenship and Republic are not desirable for flavour reasons in medieval Europe, but that is a separate concern.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Good to know. This might be equally or even more impactful than Caste System blocking Manorialism. Specifically I should have a look into how the different cottage level yield changes impact AI improvement choices, it might be that it evaluates based on the Town value rather than just the Cottage value when choosing an improvement. This is generally smart, but might be the explanation for some civs "refusing" to cottage their grasslands.

I don't think Citizenship is that impactful unless someone discovers that unit upkeep is the driving factor for upkeep costs in Europe. Whenever I looked into it, it was distinctly dwarfed by city maintenance.

Obviously both Citizenship and Republic are not desirable for flavour reasons in medieval Europe, but that is a separate concern.

Apologies, I meant to delete "Republic is quite popular among Medieval civs, almost as popular as Caste System" as I mixed Republic with Citizenship.

 

[Apple111111]

Discussing Korea, a large part of their problem may not be the tech rate itself, but rather the fact that Sejong has a 0% tech requirement to trade.

That means Sejong will trade a refuse a tech due to “We don’t want to start trading away this technology just yet”.

As far as I know, the only other leader to do this is Mansa Musa.

Korea colonises Peru in about 50% of my games, with Italy being second contender. This is obviously not desirable. Korea will always trade techs with Japan, which can lead to absurd situations where player Japan can skyrocket Korea into the digital age by 1900, which is what I did to create a tech trading partner in my Japan science victory.

Changing Sejong’s tech trade known percent to, say, 20% - 30% would do wonders for Korea’s insane tech.

The other problem is their double specialist slots, which makes a huge difference, considering how Hanseong is an insanely strong city. (Usually the most populous in the game). Idk if that needs a nerf, as Korea is a pretty populous region, but the ai will use it to hire 4 scientists and then build academies and national college to get crazy science as Korea.