Tech Balance 1.18

[AOS9001]

You mean they collapse independently of the Mongol conquest? Maybe it is also important to make them respawn more reliably.

Yes, they'll respawn after the Mongols and then collapse not long after. Sometimes they'll collapse in the classical era too.

Yes, the AI might be part of the issue, it is generally very cautious about settling when threatened. Spain needs to be put in a position to generally be able to conquer Cordoba and actually do so before it is worth further examination. With Russia, I was initially worried about them expanding into their land too quickly, with the barbarian pressure intended to put some limits on that. I think I overdid it though. So I think the barbarian pressure should be lowered, especially between their spawn and like ~1500. Other barbarians could be limited more to when Russia is actually present in Siberia instead of crippling them before getting there.

The AI being cautious explains some things... but I frequently see Russian workers on the steppe right next to Keshiks teleporting in from four tiles away. The AI doesn't seem to be able to handle the steppe nomads zooming around faster than they can react. Hell, I'm a human and the steppe barbs still take me by surprise, striking deep into territory I thought safe. Instead of lowering barb pressure, would it be possible to make the barbs stay on the steppe? Say, if Russia has no cities on the Pontic or Central Asian steppe, then the barbs will not pay as much attention to them. Attempting to settle the steppe (necessary for Russia's expansion) will attract barb attention. I'm not sure if this is even possible, or what the unintended consequences for other civs would be.

I also agree that the overall tech rate should be increased, but I am unsure about the scope and the right tool to achieve it. Should it primarily target the tech rate in the medieval era? The fact that outcomes are roughly similar between 3000 BC and 600 AD starts suggests that the classical era mostly works (not accounting for those civs mentioned above). One approach could be to only look at medieval tech costs and shave e.g. an average 10-15% off their costs.

Shaving down medieval tech costs would be a fast and easy fix, I think.

Have you looked at individual civs and their upkeep costs at all? That is the other thing I am wondering about. For the average European civ like France or HRE, how much of their income at 100% gold goes into upkeep? Is city maintenance the driving factor or inflation? I messed with both of them for a bit and I want to rule out that it's excessive costs causing the slow research.

I will definitely look into this. In the base game positive civic health was associated with Environmentalism, which is a late game civic. It's possible that the AI evaluation is programmed to emphasise this effect too much to ensure adoption of that civic. At least the evaluation should account for actual health problems - it's possible the current implementation simply assumes unhealth to be ubiquitous due to the assumed late game context. It's absolutely possible that this civic has an impact on tech rates.

Actually, speaking of civics, how much Republic have you observed in medieval civilizations?

Here is a Google sheets document with my survey of "relevant" (i.e. who we expect not to be falling behind) civs and their civics. Interestingly enough, it's not Caste System that's nigh ubiquitous, it's Citizenship. Perhaps Citizenship's high upkeep is playing a part in this tech lethargy in the middle ages?
I didn't gather city maintenance or inflation data from my saves, that was too much surveying for one day. I might come back and do that later.

 

[Leoreth]

The AI being cautious explains some things... but I frequently see Russian workers on the steppe right next to Keshiks teleporting in from four tiles away. The AI doesn't seem to be able to handle the steppe nomads zooming around faster than they can react. Hell, I'm a human and the steppe barbs still take me by surprise, striking deep into territory I thought safe. Instead of lowering barb pressure, would it be possible to make the barbs stay on the steppe? Say, if Russia has no cities on the Pontic or Central Asian steppe, then the barbs will not pay as much attention to them. Attempting to settle the steppe (necessary for Russia's expansion) will attract barb attention. I'm not sure if this is even possible, or what the unintended consequences for other civs would be.

At the very least, it is easy to make it so that certain barbarians only spawn once there are Russian cities in the steppe. At least that is the first thing I was thinking of trying. Or maybe a general grace period of no barbarian spawns after the Russian spawn.

About the teleporting Keshiks, perhaps the steppe speed buff should stop applying inside enemy borders? I am not sure how much of a difference it makes. It is very much possible that the AI does not include terrain speed modifiers in its threat considerations.

 

[AOS9001]

I went back and included city maintenance and inflation for my first two Iran games. For good measure I also did the same for my first two 1700 Prussia games.

I'm not convinced these modifiers are playing a major role, but I could be wrong. These look more or less expected. Big empire means lots of maintenance and inflation to prevent the vanilla Civ IV snowballing issue.

I also remembered something I didn't note yesterday: for some reason, sometimes civs like to revert to Kinship and Reciprocity. Korea especially likes Kinship. I know someone's brought this up in the bug reports before.

 

[banzay13]

I know you asked about normal game speed, but some notes from several Marathon games (3000Bc and 600AD). Europe doing fine. Caravels around 1400AD, Academy around 1500AD (Italy or HRE). Russia keep struggle with barbs)

 

[urbestfriend]

At the very least, it is easy to make it so that certain barbarians only spawn once there are Russian cities in the steppe. At least that is the first thing I was thinking of trying. Or maybe a general grace period of no barbarian spawns after the Russian spawn.

About the teleporting Keshiks, perhaps the steppe speed buff should stop applying inside enemy borders? I am not sure how much of a difference it makes. It is very much possible that the AI does not include terrain speed modifiers in its threat considerations.

I believe this is the case since iirc, the game does not "wake up" your workers when they are in range of enemies with boosted movement, whether it's steppe horse archers or woodsman indies.

I will go ahead and run some games soon but looking at other posts in the thread, it seems like the AI is behind around 14-1500 but way ahead around 1700. I also suspect it may be more because of tech trading than a magic renaissance tech that secretly boosts their tech speed - I think that at some point they all start going trade crazy with each other.

 

[AOS9001]

it seems like the AI is behind around 14-1500 but way ahead around 1700.

My first test on page 1 indicates the AI is still behind in 1700 when starting from 600. But if you mean the AI in the 1700 scenario, yes, they get way way way ahead of where they should be. Hollywood in the 1840s, every game!

 

[Leoreth]

Like I mentioned in the other thread, I am taking a break from working on city names. I have some bug reports to address first, but the plan is to look into tech balance afterwards. I have some notes based on this thread that I would like to try out. After those updates are pushed, it would be great if people could run additional test games to see how much of a difference they made.

 

[Leoreth]

Can someone give me more context on runaway Korea? When do you see that? At which date, which scenario? I am currently mostly looking at 600 AD games up to 1500 AD and they seem to be fine. The only difference that might impact them is that China is now more stable in my games.

 

[Apple111111]

Can someone give me more context on runaway Korea? When do you see that? At which date, which scenario? I am currently mostly looking at 600 AD games up to 1500 AD and they seem to be fine. The only difference that might impact them is that China is now more stable in my games.

It’s typically 3000BC starts with a stable Japan, and where they manage to survive the Mongols.

Essentially, the combination of double specialist slots and the fact that Sejong’s AI will always trade techs even if 1 other civ knows them means that Japan and Korea start this sphere of tech trading that causes them to be an era ahead of the rest of Asia, and eventually, Europe too.

I’ve found Korea to usually be the first to hit the global era and the first to colonise America in those games. By 1500 you might not notice the tech difference unless you went ahead to 1700 and beyond, then problems like Korea colonising Peru start to emerge. (Italy also might colonise Peru, depending on the game)

 

[Leoreth]

Alright, I am currently limiting my efforts to the 1500s to make sure they are alright. Especially Reformation and discovery of the Americas. I think I will delay dealing with Korea for a bit then.

 

[triplebassist]

I've also seen them go crazy in the 1600s and 1700s from 600 AD starts, but I think it's the same dynamic that causes it.

 

[AOS9001]

In my testing, I noticed that if Korea survived the Mongols then they begin pulling away in techs. I actually think Korea's tech rate might not be the problem, it's everyone else's tech rate that's the problem.

An easy fix would be scripting a Mongol invasion in the 1200s and then having Korea respawn in the 1400s or 1500s behind on tech, but that might be too determinist for this game.

 

[DanLT3]

If China survives the early game they always become ahead of tech and a real superpower, easily crushing Mongols.

 

[Temüjin VIII]

One related cause of Korea's tech problem seems to be that they can get insane amounts of commerce even with just 2 core cities. Maybe we can have AI Korea focus more on culture instead if they're leading in tech. I've seen similar code for China in the DLL. If I'm playing as Korea I'd like to play the science game (as they are oriented historically), and I wouldn't want civ modifiers to be my main obstacle in achieving that.

 

[Leoreth]

I just pushed a huge new update mostly targeted at addressing the issues raised in this thread. Please have a look and report the impact.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

It feels surprisingly warm and fuzzy to see one's own input appear in the update log verbatim.

Now stay tuned for the post where I express regret that my suggestions totally backfired.

 

[AOS9001]

Just loaded up a Netherlands start and I did not found Protestantism on placing Amsterdam. I looked around and saw Spain had conquered Cordoba and Mexico.

Definitely a step in the right direction!

 

[triplebassist]

I'll need to run some more test games, but Japan and especially France look to have been juiced up by the changes. France has the a most of the first and some second tier industrial era techs (Ballistics is of course the favorite, followed by Railroad), and Japan has been the only other country to be first to an IE tech. Other than that, things look really good, with a more active Spain, a pretty well colonized Caribbean and eastern North America by 1700, and Protestantism founded in Germany in the mid-1500s.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Early observations are looking good. Using newly spawned civ techs as a reference, existing civs are much closer than before. Overall general tech flow is starting to resemble its old self. AI preferences also look better with a few persistent oddballs like Ottos and Russia habitually aiming straight for Cartography.

 

[triplebassist]

3000 BC China is still wilding. Attached 1200 AD save has Economics discovered in 930 AD and Scientific Method in 1150. They're an era ahead of everyone, and with a glance at the map I'm unsure if the Mongols will be able to bring them down.

On an unrelated note, this is another African game where religion just won't spread. I'm not sure what the best way to get Islam to Mali and Catholicism to Kongo reliably is, but it's frustrating to realize you won't get the UHV because a random religion spread didn't happen.