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Tech Balance 1.18

I'll need to run some more test games, but Japan and especially France look to have been juiced up by the changes. France has the a most of the first and some second tier industrial era techs (Ballistics is of course the favorite, followed by Railroad), and Japan has been the only other country to be first to an IE tech. Other than that, things look really good, with a more active Spain, a pretty well colonized Caribbean and eastern North America by 1700, and Protestantism founded in Germany in the mid-1500s.
Yeah, my observations are mostly limited up until 1570, and those also mostly starting from 600 AD. I will return with more focus on the 1700 and beyond state of the game later.

3000 BC China is still wilding. Attached 1200 AD save has Economics discovered in 930 AD and Scientific Method in 1150. They're an era ahead of everyone, and with a glance at the map I'm unsure if the Mongols will be able to bring them down.
I see, that's not exactly surprising. My observation from the 3000 BC start is that they start extremely slow and then catch up quickly. What is your impression of when they start to pull ahead?

On an unrelated note, this is another African game where religion just won't spread. I'm not sure what the best way to get Islam to Mali and Catholicism to Kongo reliably is, but it's frustrating to realize you won't get the UHV because a random religion spread didn't happen.
I am aware of this issue, but I haven't looked into it yet.
 
Yeah, my observations are mostly limited up until 1570, and those also mostly starting from 600 AD. I will return with more focus on the 1700 and beyond state of the game later.
These were also from the 600 AD scenario, though obviously later than your current focus has been.

I see, that's not exactly surprising. My observation from the 3000 BC start is that they start extremely slow and then catch up quickly. What is your impression of when they start to pull ahead?
That reads as right to me. They were behind for most of the Classical Era, but they were first to 20 of 21 Medieval techs (missing only the Islam founding tech). I'd say they starting really pulling ahead between 400-600 AD and by 800 AD were clearly far ahead compared to the other civs.
 
Booted up a 3000BC Japan Regent/Normal game on the newest Git update for a run and saw this pop up:
Spoiler :
1734317651382.png

Opened up WB and the problem was Persia. Looking at the tech tree they also already have Gunpowder and are Stable.
Spoiler :
1734317702436.png
1734317743538.png

Looks like both China and Persia are racing ahead and both are relatively stable at this point. Didn't pull a screenshot yet but Persia goes from Transoxania to Jerusalem to Armenia to Oman. Rome is collapsed. I 'assume' the Arabs will do some damage to the Persians and force a collapse but their and China's tech status and momentum at 600AD is too high IMO. I assume China, if they stay stable, will easily repel the Mongols based on their tech and development status.
 
I'm compiling another multi-game test similar to my Iran runs earlier in the thread, and I'm noticing England is back to the usual tricks of being several techs ahead of anyone. I'm talking Geography in 1490. Can anyone else confirm this yet?
 
Look like now tech cost was decreased significant (but it Epic/Monarch 3000BC). Vassalage work fine. Now big armys got back to Europe, not independent cites now. House of Wisdom now pathetic. And Bubble too. Great prophet can't research even Law for Egypt. And i settle 2 GP - and still was need 1 turn to research Doctrine. I didn't saw civs run Redistribution in ME - MT or RT in Europe, but SA civs running Slavery(?!?)
1400AD Moors got Economics
1408AD HRE got Academy and Spain finally (with vassalage they can afford now army) got Cordoba by war. HRE and Spain now look like from 1.7.4
I'm not sure that late ME and Reneasance tech cost should be reduced since manorialism and vassalage became very stong. There no unimproved titles in Europe after ~ 1450. Even Russia goin better. And reduced tech cost will affect not only Europe, but Mongols, China, Mughals and others big civs and could cause disbalance.
toofast.jpg
 
Please give feedback for Normal/Regent only.
 
Well, i made 6 Dutch start from 600AD
in 5 HRE found Protestantism around 1490-1550, once it was Dutch
Geography - yes, indeed. In all attempts it was discovered by someone. In worse case - only by Portugal, but usually 2-3 civs have it. Look like colonial civs now heading strait to it, skipping Firearms
Firearms - France have it always, Spain - sometimes, once i saw HRE and England with Firearms
Only one game where Cordoba was under Moors control, Russia going much better now, but still suffer from barbs, only in one game Korea was alive (probably Mongols)
Some civs indeed in Europe switch to Reciprocity, probably coz incompatibility MT with Manorialism
Something strange - in one game Sweden seat in capital and do nothing. In another game where was no Sweden at all. No ruins, nothing :crazyeye:

Spoiler Other speed :
Also i run one game on Epic - it was a same as Normal, and one on Marathon - it was more like 1.17.4 except wider spread of Geography
 
So what common trends did I observe?
  • Civs like the Mughals, Italy, Sweden, and Iran are often the first to late Medieval or early Renaissance techs because they spawn with them
  • Korea is a meme that should not be taken seriously for these tech balancing tests
  • European civs are mostly ignoring the bottom rows of medieval techs to rush Firearms or Exploration, and sometimes Logistics
  • Russia did its own thing, they were often going for Statecraft, which meant researching bottom row techs only the Asian civs had gone for. Alexander III was right, Russia is not a European country!
  • In general, the entire world is behind where it should be, by at least one row of techs, if not two. I think by 1500, the Mediterranean civs should be wrapping up the third row of medieval techs with the Northern Europeans not far behind, while the Middle East and Asia should be solidly in the first row of Renaissance techs but starting to slow down as they hit the limits of what pre-industrial economies can do.
  • In my Prussia runs above, I noticed a general paucity of European colonies, excluding games where Spain actually did something. I think the tech slowness in 1500 is the culprit, Europeans don't even have Cartography in many cases in 1500, let alone Exploration. Back when I was doing my Dutch test runs to see if they were always founding Protestantism on spawn, months ago, I noticed how rare it was for any Europeans to have anything but conqueror holdings in the New World in 1580. Now I know why. I doubt most civs have Exploration in 1580 at the rate techs are going.
  • In conclusion, in a player-less world in 1500, Iran is the only guaranteed civ to be in the Renaissance in 1500. Korea has a very good shot at making it because it's a meme civ. Ottomans and Mughals both have high potential to make it, and sometimes there's flukes like that Mongolia with Logistics or Sweden with Firearms, but no AI civ will for sure reach the Renaissance before Iran spawns in 1500. I think 1.18 definitely has a tech problem right now.
Running another 5 Iran start study, 600 AD, normal speed, regent difficulty. I'm quoting my original post for comparison and contrast, see below.

Spoiler Iran 11 :

Iran start 11.png
Iran start 11 techs.png'
Arabs are alive, stable, and top in score, also they were tech leader in the medieval era. Look at all those techs they discovered first.
Hindu Mughals, but Muslim Turks, that's nice.
Ottomans are bottled up in the Byzantines old land by super Arabia. They still run fanaticism, purging Orthodoxy from their lands, and thus being unable to use their UP... They got Firearms in 1390 though.
Russia managed to get past Kazan, but Kharabali was captured by France for no clear reason. This has been an issue throughout 1.18.
England seems to be teach leader in Europe, they got Geography in 1480! They got Exploration in 1410 and Optics in 1465. Their only colony is Elmina/Nkran, though.
Mongols beelined Logistics, getting it in 1365. This is going to be a pattern.
Ethiopia built St. Sophia, which is unusual.
Spain lost Lugo to Portugal and hasn't taken Cordoba. Cordoba never improved the northeast lemon or their stone.
Vietnam has eaten South China but can't make it past Indrapura's triple hill strength crossbowman. I've never seen an AI take this city without player help.


Spoiler Iran 12 :

Iran start 12.png
Iran start 12 techs.png
Orthodox Ottomans, but Muslim Mughals and Turks.
Once again, England is leading the tech race in Europe, with Exploration (1430) and Optics (1490) discovered, with four turns left on Geography.
France got Firearms in 1395.
Mongols got Logistics in 1375 (like I said, it's a pattern).
HRE got Academia in 1490, it's the earliest Reformation I've seen in a while.
Russia is bottled up by Kazan and Kharabali. True to life in 1500, actually.
Spain took Cordoba! But they only have one bad city on the Atlantic (Santiago, made even worse by the presence of Leon hogging all the worked tiles) and their Med. ports are blocked by Moor culture. Amazingly, Spain also took Sicily and Naples, which is what King Ferdinand was working on in 1500 IRL.
Overall, this world is not as advanced as game 11, probably due to lack of super Arabia. Would AI Arabia trade techs with AI Europe? Or does Arabia simply having all those techs make research costs cheaper for Europeans nearby?


Spoiler Iran 13 :

Iran start 13.png
Iran start 13 techs.png
Super Arabia is back, but collapsing, they've lost Egypt and Jerusalem to secession. However, it was China leading the medieval tech race in this game.
Mughals and Ottomans are both Muslim, but Turks remain Buddhist. Ottomans remain confined by Super Arabia.
Mongols got Logistics in 1360.
Spain got Exploration in 1450, which is nice to see. They're building El Escorial and have a galleon about to meet the Aztecs. There's also an Italian caravel at the Orinoco river. Amerigo Vespucci, is that you!?
Russia got past Kazan, Ottomans got Kharabali. I wonder if this city should auto-raze on Mongol collapse?
Sweden got Firearms in 1455.
Ethiopia built St. Sophia, weird that it happened twice. Usually I see it in Moscow.


Spoiler Iran 14 :

Iran start 14.png
Iran start 14 techs.png
Ottomans are top dog, but doing nothing out of the ordinary. Nice to see Muslim Mughals and Turks too.
France got Firearms in 1415 and Exploration in 1490.
HRE got Academia in 1490. HRE and France are the only Europeans in the Renaissance.
Mongols got Logistics in 1355.
Spain went Protestant, absolutely heretical. They also failed to get Cordoba (and Moors once again failed to improve their non-orchard resources. Maybe they're just not building workers?)
Russia ignored Kazan and went straight for settling the Urals. Weird. Maybe the AI fears the Komi Longbowman who stack there?
Sweden never spawned, Vikings look like they collapsed early, leaving Scandinavia desolate.
Once again, the world is a little behind than games where Super Arabia exists. Interesting...


Spoiler Iran 15 :

Iran start 15.png
Iran start 15 techs.png
Muslim Ottomans, Mughals, and Turks in 1500? It's a miracle!
Mongols got Logistics in 1345 and Exploration in 1395, wow.
France got Firearms in 1395.
England got Economics in 1480! They're having a really good game, with Speightstown, New York, and even Philly (obligatory New York booing here) founded. They met the Aztec skirmisher, so no one's getting conquerors in Mexico.
Spain did not take Cordoba, who are struggling to improve Andalusia.
Russia has taken Kazan and moved into the Urals, despite being threatened by Tartar keshiks. Kharabali remains independent.


Common trends:
  • Mongolia is getting Logistics in the 14th century, 5/5 games. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, as they rarely survive past the mid 15th century, but I'm intrigued by how regular it is.
  • Korea's tech lead is mostly a thing of the past, many times they do not survive the Mongols
  • No China respawn by 1500 in 5/5 games.
  • France will often get Firearms before 1400.
  • England is rushing Exploration in the early 1400s and usually getting to the second row of Renaissance techs by 1500. Reminds me of the good old days of unstoppable England teching in 1.17!
  • Spain is still sometimes struggling with Cordoba in 2/5 games, even with nerfed Moors who won't even improve their Andalusian resources. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink...
  • Russia seems more willing to expand and develop, and is keeping up with techs. It's realistic they're not going for Kazan or Kharabali before 1500, but this means one of the many European military units wandering the steppe will typically capture one of these cities. I think Kharabali should autoraze on Mongol collapse since it's the one typically being snatched up by other civs (and I'm pretty sure it's supposed to represent the capitals of the Khazars, Cumans, and Golden Horde, which should be destroyed in time anyway). It also opens up a little more space for Tsarisyn/Volgograd in the future and lets Astrakhan be founded, which is a much more relevant city for the region.
  • Super Arabia seems to influence techs in Europe. Without Super Arabia, the West is noticeably less advanced. I could be wrong about this, but it's what I noticed.
  • Europeans are a lot more willing to research the peaceful techs on the bottom of the tree now, which is great. Protestantism seems to be guaranteed before Dutch spawn in most games.
  • Europeans also seem more willing to make colonies, at least England does. I think some 1700 Prussia starts need to be rolled to confirm this.
Overall, I think this update was a huge step in the right direction. There's still fine-tuning to be done, of course. Why do the Mongols beeline Logistics every game? Why is England racing so far ahead of the other Europeans? Does Super Arabia tech trading have anything to do with this? Why is France rushing Firearms so early? What's going on with AWOL China? I think these are worth looking into.
 
I will definitely look into these, after a city name focused (holiday) break.

Does China not come back when the Mongols collapse? Did the Mongols control their core in those games at the time of collapse?
 
Did the Mongols control their core in those games at the time of collapse?
Unfortunately I loaded up these games while doing my real job, so I wasn't looking at the screen for any of them. I could retire all five saves and see what happens in the map replay, unless you know a more efficient way?
 
Nope, I don't think you need to put in that extra effort, I was just wondering in case you knew. I'll investigate more deeply myself.
 
Now I'm curious, I think I'll run a few more games tonight and actually pay attention to what's happening.
 
I can confirm the Mongols controlled China's core before collapsing, no Chinese respawn by 1500. The Mongols tend to collapse right around 1400, so maybe there just isn't enough time by 1500 for China to respawn? This was the height of the Ming, though, so an absent China is a little weird.
 
I would expect China to come back as an immediate consequence of the Mongol collapse.
 
I made a series of Autoplay starts up until the BrazilCIV start date, which is 1822. Since I only have experience playing Epic speed - Monarchy difficulty, I hope that perhaps the saves and feedback will be useful in some way.

These first 8 saves are from the version made available on Github on 11/29/2024
The last 9 saves (next post) are from the version updated on 12/16/2024

The save files will be attached in case you want to see them.
Spoiler Brazil.sav :


1734735090438.png

- The Spanish Empire had the secessions of the CIVs of Mexico, Colombia and Argentina (normal situation) and also up to the CIV of Peru, also with 3 cities, leaving only Montevideo and La Paz with Spain on the South American continent.

- CIV America has the usual behavior of having few cities, only the 4 coastal cities + Cincinnati and Birmingham (which was captured by 6 native units).

- CIV Poland collapsed and therefore two cities (Krakow (10 pop) and Wroclaw (6 pop)) were under German control. In addition to having them respawned by CIV Ruthenia.

-Using Worldbuilder it was possible to see that the city of Koln (Germany) will build the wonder Brandenburg gate in 6 turns and London (England) the wonder Bell Rock lighthouse in 20 turns. The Eiffel Tower had already been built in 1806 in Paris and the wonder Hermitage had already been built in 1780 by Japan. (which shows AI behavior of building wonders very early)

- As for the tech pace, 6 European civs already had the Ballistics tech, which in my opinion helps a lot to keep the game balanced because the fact that AIs seem to give priority to this tech makes them avoid other economic techs earlier and avoid the snowball effect. I think this should be maintained in the Industrial Age so that the game remains balanced.


Spoiler Pedro II AD-1822 Turn 539.sav :


1734737230974.png

- The Spanish Empire had the secessions of the CIVs Mexico, Colombia and Argentina (normal situation).

- CIVAmerica presents the routine behavior of having few cities, only the 4 coastal cities + Cicinnati and Birmingham (both with only one unit defending and with 5 native units nearby to attack).

- CIV Poland did not collapse, which was good for the balance of power in Central Europe.

- Using Worldbuilder, it was possible to see that the city of Koln (Germany) will build the wonder Hermitage in 5 turns and London (England) the wonder Abbey Mills in 1 turn. (which shows the AI's behavior of building wonders very early)

- Regarding the tech pace, 6 European civs + 2 vassal civs already had the Ballistics tech, which in my opinion helps a lot to keep the game balanced because the fact that the AIs seem to give priority to this tech makes them avoid other economic techs earlier and avoid the snowball effect. I think this should be maintained in the Industrial Age so that the game remains balanced.

_ The overwhelming majority of CIVs now adopt civic bureaucracy, which, combined with the fact that the AI focuses on building wonders very early on, means that if an AI starts building a wonder in a capital city, it is almost impossible to prevent it from finishing that wonder.


Spoiler Defense.sav :

1734739921257.png

- The Spanish Empire had the secessions of the CIVs Mexico, Colombia and Argentina (normal situation).

- CIVAmerica presents the routine behavior of having few cities, only the 4 coastal cities + Cicinnati, Birmingham and New Orleans (gained by World Congress).

- CIV Poland did not collapse, which was good for the balance of power in Central Europe.

- Using Worldbuilder, it was possible to see that the city of Koln (Germany) will build the wonder Crystal Palace in 9 turns and Paris (France) the wonder Eiffel Tower in 9 turns, Dilli (Mughal) will build wonder Brandenburg Gate in 14 turns . (which shows the AI's behavior of building wonders very early)

- Regarding the tech pace, 5 European civs + 1 vassal civs already had the Ballistics tech, which in my opinion helps a lot to keep the game balanced because the fact that the AIs seem to give priority to this tech makes them avoid other economic techs earlier and avoid the snowball effect. I think this should be maintained in the Industrial Age so that the game remains balanced. In this save, there was a slightly stronger advance in the tech tree with 3 Civs with the Railroad tech. England is already halfway through tech refining in 1822.

_ The overwhelming majority of CIVs now adopt civic bureaucracy, which, combined with the fact that the AI focuses on building wonders very early on, means that if an AI starts building a wonder in a capital city, it is almost impossible to prevent it from finishing that wonder.
 

Attachments

series of Autoplay starts up until the BrazilCIV start date, which is 1822. Epic speed - Monarchy. These last 12 saves are from the version updated on 12/16/2024.



Points observed:
- The AI tends to build wonders very early, now that many CIVs have Civic bureaucracy, production in the capital city is very high, which helps to finish the wonders very early.
- The AI tends to research tech ballistics in the industrial age, and this is great for balancing the game's technological progression, as it helps a lot to avoid the snowballing effect.
- The CIV Germany always focuses on the tech engine and therefore ends up getting the coal plant build very early, which makes the cities of Germany have a truly monstrous production.
- This github version from 12/16/2024 seems to tend to make the Spanish empire have its fragmentation more rarely, since in about 3 or 4 plays. there was no spawning of the Latin American CIVs (Mexico, Colombia, Argentina). Could something have changed in relation to this? I noticed this trend.
 

Attachments

Last edited:
Please stick to the parameters outlined in the opening post.
 
I am receptive to more tech balance feedback. I would like to focus two things:
  • Overall balance up to 1700 AD from the 600 AD start
  • Balance of runaway early civilizations like China and Persia from the 3000 BC start
As before, please stick to Regent/Normal.
 
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