One thing that I was trying to do by moving techs around is spread them out so that they are fairly equal across the columns. Column X28 really stands out right now with only three techs, and X29 is full with 10 techs. Moving some techs around leaves some empty space in each column so that if we want to add a new tech, we have more space to properly place it. Under my scheme, each column has from 6-8 techs, leaving gaps in each column for later additions.
I was also noticing that some techs seem really far away from where they should be. For example, Geometry should not be all the way over in X31, because it's pretty much straight off Mathematics. Iron Working should not be in column X27, because you can't research it without Monarchy first.
I can change specific placements, but I would like to have the new groupings used. I can go into more detail on how I placed things if you'd like.
I approve of the new Classical Tech costs, except for the Religion techs, which I would like to have be one X-grid more expensive, if that at all makes sense. You can go ahead and change it yourself, I won't be back to my modding computer until the weekend.
Would it not be an idea to increase base tech costs enough to be able to remove or at least reduce the BBAI tech modifiers if you're going over and changing the costs anyway?
Would it not be an idea to increase base tech costs enough to be able to remove or at least reduce the BBAI tech modifiers if you're going over and changing the costs anyway?
Might as well change it to fit a BBAI tech modifier of 0 (that way tech cost progression will be smooth) and maybe also normalize the tech costs to epic speed values.
Might as well change it to fit a BBAI tech modifier of 0 (that way tech cost progression will be smooth) and maybe also normalize the tech costs to epic speed values.
Well, IIRC I set the BBAI for Classical to 66, which means that all of the costs are multiplied by 3 essentially. So, Vokarya should take all of the Classical Techs and multiply their costs by 3 to start.
I approve of the new Classical Tech costs, except for the Religion techs, which I would like to have be one X-grid more expensive, if that at all makes sense. You can go ahead and change it yourself, I won't be back to my modding computer until the weekend.
What do you think of my changes to the grid locations? I am trying to have the grid better reflect the difficulty of getting to a specific technology. I think we have added so many technologies, and added them around the existing techs, that the tree needed a comprehensive re-imagining. Geometry particularly stands out, because it's halfway across the classical era, but it only really requires Mathematics to research (Sundial is an Ancient tech, so it's much easier to research.)
Most of the religion techs are already more expensive than their previous costs (Judaism and Zoroastrianism are up to 150, Asatru and Buddhism 200, Andeanism and Naghualism 250, Confucianism 400, Jainism and Sikhism 500; only Hellenism drops, from 240 to 200). Do you really think they need to be increased even more?
Well, IIRC I set the BBAI for Classical to 66, which means that all of the costs are multiplied by 3 essentially. So, Vokarya should take all of the Classical Techs and multiply their costs by 3 to start.
It's a tag in the EraInfos file. It is labeled with commented code there. The value of the tag determines the percent to be subtracted from your research efforts, so if the value is 66, then you will only get 34% research for that era, or about one third. I'd advise not touching that, as I'd like to be able to easily adjust all tech costs for an era with one tag, as opposed to manually going through and messing with every tech cost.
I don't really care about the grid locations of the techs, it is a purely visual component.
It's a tag in the EraInfos file. It is labeled with commented code there. The value of the tag determines the percent to be subtracted from your research efforts, so if the value is 66, then you will only get 34% research for that era, or about one third. I'd advise not touching that, as I'd like to be able to easily adjust all tech costs for an era with one tag, as opposed to manually going through and messing with every tech cost.
I don't really care about the grid locations of the techs, it is a purely visual component.
I would like to return to my idea of remapping the Classical Era Tech Tree in order to make my recosting scheme fit better to the existing connections between technologies.
(This is NOT for v25. This can wait until v26. I want to try to convince everyone that this remapping is a good idea, and we can take some time to get it right. I'm willing to tweak the details to make it acceptable to everyone.)
What I am trying to accomplish by remapping the Classical Era is:
Techs of the same difficulty to reach should be in the same column. I think we have slotted techs in wherever there was room, so we have some that are out of line (Geometry, Meritocracy).
Techs should flow from prerequisite to later tech. I do believe that, and I have tried to include it wherever possible.
The number of techs per column should average out, and there should be some empty space per column for new techs. I'm not a big fan of solid walls of tech in a column, and right now X29 is such a wall of 10 while X28 has only 3 techs.
I used my level system to decide where the techs should fall on the spectrum from easiest to hardest (easiest, of course, being the techs that don't require any other Classical tech to research and then going up from there). Here is the level breakdown of the Classical Era, behind the spoiler box as it's a long list.
Spoiler:
Classical Level 1 (12 techs): Requires no Classical Technologies to research.
Alphabet
Athletics
Cloud Patterns
Currency
Glass Blowing
Horse Breeding
Judaism
Mathematics
Meditation
Monarchy
Ship Building
Zoroastrianism
Classical Level 2 (13 techs): Requires a Classical Level 1 tech to research.
Aristocracy (req Monarchy)
Asatru (req Ship Building)
Buddhism (req Meditation)
Calendar (req Mathematics)
Code of Laws (req Monarchy)
Combat Sports (req Athletics)
Construction (req Mathematics)
Geometry (req Mathematics)
Hellenism (req Athletics)
Iron Working (req Monarchy)
Literature (req Alphabet)
Mounted Archery (req Horse Breeding)
Road Building (req Monarchy)
Classical Level 3 (12 techs): Requires a Classical Level 2 tech to research.
Ancient Ballistics (req Construction)
Ancient Medicine (req Code of Laws)
Andeanism (req Construction)
Astrology (req Calendar)
Calligraphy (req Aristocracy)
City Planning (req Road Building)
Concrete (req Construction)
Democracy (req Code of Laws)
Meritocracy (req Literature)
Naghualism (req Calendar)
Spice Trade (req Calendar)
Stirrup (req Iron Working)
Classical Level 4 (7 techs): Requires a Classical Level 3 tech to research.
Aesthetics (req Calligraphy)
Canal Systems (req City Planning)
Confucianism (req Meritocracy)
Drug Trade (req Spice Trade)
Insurance (req Calligraphy)
Philosophy (req Meritocracy)
Siege Warfare (req Ancient Ballistics)
Classical Level 5 (10 techs): Requires a Classical Level 4 tech to research.
Drama (req Aesthetics)
Floristry (req Aesthetics)
Jainism (req Aesthetics)
Machinery (req Siege Warfare)
Mosaic Working (req Aesthetics)
Sanitation (req Canal Systems)
Sikhism (req Philosophy)
Smithing (req Siege Warfare)
Vassalage (req Siege Warfare)
Weather Lore (req Philosophy)
Classical Level 6 (3 techs): Requires a Classical Level 5 tech to research.
Music (req Drama)
Paved Roads (req Machinery)
Poetry (req Drama)
If the tech tree had unlimited vertical space, I would simply put each level on a separate column. There are only 10 spaces per column, so some levels will have to be spaced out over 2 or even 3 columns. I also would like to leave some space per column so that the tree doesn't look too crowded. There are only 8 columns to use for the 6 levels of the Classical Era, so I can't just put each large level on 2 columns.
The two things that initially jumped out at me were:
Classical Level 4 is 7 technologies. This will make a perfect column on its own.
Classical Level 6 is only 3 technologies. This is not enough for a whole column. Combining it with 3 techs from Classical Level 5 will make for a good column of 6 techs.
So I have the last 3 columns:
X32 is 7 technologies, all from level 4.
X33 is 7 techs from level 5.
X34 is 3 techs from level 6 plus 3 techs from level 5.
This leaves 5 columns for the first 3 columns. Levels 1 and 3 are 12 techs, and level 2 is 13. Each of these is roughly 1 + 2/3 of a column. Making Level 2 (1/3) + 1 + (1/3) gives this:
X27 is 7 techs from level 1.
X28 is 5 techs from level 1 and 3 techs from level 2.
X29 is 7 techs from level 2.
X30 is 3 techs from level 2 and 5 techs from level 3.
X31 is 7 techs from level 3.
The total breakdown is 7-8-7-8-7-7-7-6. We currently have 8-3-10-6-9-8-8-5.
Does at least this sound agreeable?
I think this is the most important part because it will ensure that the easiest-to-reach technologies have the lowest costs, and then the later techs get more expensive in an organized way. If we leave the techs where they are now, some costs will be out of line with how difficult the tech is to reach (Geometry would be base cost 300, when it's only level 2 and should cost 150-200). The next part will be breaking apart levels 1-2-3-5 into their separate columns.
One small problem I am having with the costing of some techs is that they should be cheaper than their previous tech because they are a natural flow on. "Mega-fauna Domestication" should be cheaper than the cheapest of "Horse Domestication", "Camel Domestication" and "Elephant Domestication". (By the way those three should be cheaper if you already have one of them.) There are a couple of others mostly in te prehistoric and ancient eras.
One small problem I am having with the costing of some techs is that they should be cheaper than their previous tech because they are a natural flow on. "Mega-fauna Domestication" should be cheaper than the cheapest of "Horse Domestication", "Camel Domestication" and "Elephant Domestication". (By the way those three should be cheaper if you already have one of them.) There are a couple of others mostly in te prehistoric and ancient eras.
The new buildings/units/Wonders/everything else you get from new techs should be better than what you already have, so shouldn't that make the new tech more expensive?
I don't think we can make the Domestication techs loop into each other with OR prerequisites, which would cover your question about making them cheaper. I suggested that back with Priesthood and Divination, and someone said it causes a crash.
The new buildings/units/Wonders/everything else you get from new techs should be better than what you already have, so shouldn't that make the new tech more expensive?
If the new units/bldgs were in fact better this "should" be the case.
It doesn't always work that way. In DH's example the Bear, Bison, Rhino, Llama riders are not really Improved units over Horse, Camel and Elephant. The Giraffe Archer doesn't show up till you get Horse Archer and Is Not a better unit either (neither is the Camel Archer). Many time these added riding units are actually weaker or their abilities are very narrowly designed over the main 3 riding units. Mammoths are the lone exception. But are so very hard to get.
It depends on the terrain on which mounted unit is better. Camels are very strong on arid terrains, Llamas can cross mountains when other units cannot, Horses are good on flat terrain, Elephants are good at siegeing and going through jungles, giraffes and zebras are great at savannah warfare, mammoths are great at polar warfare. It all depends on where you are fighting.
I personally have been owned by the AI when I tried to do a desert battle and they had camels and I did not.
The new buildings/units/Wonders/everything else you get from new techs should be better than what you already have, so shouldn't that make the new tech more expensive?
I don't think we can make the Domestication techs loop into each other with OR prerequisites, which would cover your question about making them cheaper. I suggested that back with Priesthood and Divination, and someone said it causes a crash.
But some don't. The other major example is the "Soft-stone percussion" - "Chopping", "Scrapping" and "Piercing" group. The later three only provide minor upgrades to a building and some promotions and soon some improvements to improvements. They are also techniques/technologies that are obvious from the first once you get the new chipped stone in hand.
That's true. Just because a tech has little to no benefits now doesn't mean it will not in the future. So much is added everyday that you cannot really judge a tech's value by what it unlocks, since something may get added or even moved to another tech the next day.
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