Technological/Education Property

i can give one example that prove that isn't education what reduce birthrates and his china. they get a high population growth in the country so they need to apply the one son law, a law that would led to the destruction of the country after maybe 5 or 6 generations. why? because having just one children isn't sustanible and it will decrease the population .the magic number is 2.1 for each pair (0.1 is for illness and other things)to maintain the population stable.yet many "highlly educated" countries doesn't reach this mark.i read one new that in japan they were worry due the slow childbirth rate,that if it continuos for many years,will led to problems in the country

also the part that you say that we are much highlly educated than before, i think is wrong. just look at this tv programs were people go that makes easy questions and yet they fail to answer then. it is kinda of sad, but is true that a significant part of the population doesn't seem to be enougth educated

You couldn't have chosen two examples that exemplify this thesis further. China was running at a fairly low average education level for some time and is only beginning to bring that up but if it does bring it up too much it runs the danger of opening up the door for revolution (which we'll figure out better how to express later) but the point is - the onset of communism really introduced the need to limit the educational exposure which in turn caused fertility rates to go up which they must address now by imposing brutal means of restricting birth rates (which would sure make for an interesting civic!)

That restriction is a direct attack on the birth rate problem they would otherwise have - they MUST reduce their population because they've overgrown their means and many live in poverty (though the free trade has brought them a lot of economic recovery, they still require it to maintain healthy economic growth and even with it they are looking a little shaky at the moment.)

Thus, China is a perfect example of low education leading to high birth rates leading to overpopulation which they have elected to attempt to control with even more brutal means which they can get away with because of the reduced education levels.


On the flip side of the coin you bring up Japan which is a perfect opposite scenario. You say how the Japanese are voluntarily having trouble keeping up their birth rates so as to sustain their population (which arguably isn't a terrible thing for their space limited island nation that could use a bit of population reduction if it wasn't such a bad thing for their westernized economic structure that is, like all western economies, based on a ponzy scheme that requires population growth to enable infinite economic growth...)

Japan is also one of the most (if not THE most) well educated nations on Earth with extremely high average universal and aptitude testing scores among its students. They are not implementing any policy which would limit the population growth of their nation yet the population is pretty much stalled out (or even shrinking which is something our game's pop growth modifiers can't represent without affecting food directly which doesn't seem quite right either because the civ pop growth model is inherently flawed from go by basing it directly on food. But at least we can get it somewhat closer to a realistic model.)

Point being -
Japan: Extremely high average education level, very low to non-existent pop growth rate.
China: Must instil tight and brutal controls over population growth and this is in part due to a somewhat under the curve average education level.

The model I'm proposing matches reality quite nicely here as well as revealing to us where some interesting new civics could bring us into even more accuracy.


Your point about people being lower educated based on observations of game shows is, while rather non-scientifically derived as there will ALWAYS be a segment of the population that is personally under the average education level, probably quite astute. When you compare it to fairly recent history anyhow.

My statement was made to compare the US education levels between now and say... the Middle Ages. Gotta admit... still much higher now than it would've been then. Even considering that education represents how much information the average of all citizens have absorbed the amount of knowledge available in that era. Peasants were kept VERY stupidly uneducated to the point that the average Caveman would've easily known more about the world and life than they did despite their overall pool of societal knowledge being much lower.

But yes... America is being dumbed down in tons of ways - all very subtle. Education systems are taxed, the less intelligent are breeding more often (which has a genetic impact on IQ), our sources of entertainment are growing more and more basal by the day and our news media blasts us with lies and propaganda every moment it airs and since the vast majority BELIEVE the BS, the lies become the accepted truth. Yeah, America's getting stupid these days.

But let's pause to consider what this means from a National Management perspective... have you considered that we may NEED to be a little less educated so that we will be less likely to resist the actions and agendas that power sources in the government would like to take? If you're running a democratic society, there's not much room for error in convincing your public that you're always making decisions with their best interests in mind - if they are stupider they are easier to convince of this when you, as a National Leader (or in our case a ruling body), slyly go about to conquer and conquest for personal financial gains, villainizing our 'enemies' in the public eye quite successfully no matter how innocent and willing to work for peace they may be.

Taking this model into the game, in preparation for additional conflicts, the enhanced birth rate certainly doesn't hurt to add fuel for troop recruitment does it? Particularly when (in our model) volunteer army accessed recruitment centers will reduce the birth rate to compensate for the recruiting process.


Since all research and evidence backs my proposal as well as a hung jury, I feel compelled to implement the changes as charted here. I adjusted the color of the revolution adjustment to indicate I've omitted it but still feel it's going to be important to implement in some form, based on a civic-education comparison. This will take some more thought on how to best implement - and perhaps happiness will be a key way to go about it too but I see some contradictions with generic happiness based on civic-education levels so I'm going to take some more time to consider that factor.

I've also made the population growth factor perhaps too weak in comparison to the food adjustment factor that counteracts it either way you go with education levels so that may require further tweaking later. For now, due to the 'hung jury' I'll implement this weaker version and perhaps we'll see to increasing or decreasing the impact later.
 
Will you have all 10 positive buildings at one or is the better one always replacing the weaker one? If so, do they still add up their values?

As for the modifiers, isn't that what Yudishtira said: +100% are not the opposite of -100% but of 50%?
 
Will you have all 10 positive buildings at one or is the better one always replacing the weaker one? If so, do they still add up their values?

As for the modifiers, isn't that what Yudishtira said: +100% are not the opposite of -100% but of 50%?

The building's won't replace each other as they go so their modifiers will be cumulative.

Oh... I DID reduce anarchy mods to 1 and -1 per step rather than 5 after considering the effect on larger empires.

Yes, I adjusted the numbers to reflect Yudishtira's observations. I'm just looking at them and thinking that the food yield % modifier might be offsetting it a little too far so that the overall intention is a little too subverted. I'll need to see the effect in-game to know for sure. I do strongly feel that agriculture would benefit a lot from higher education levels so there's bound to be a counteractive effect on the reduced population growth - I just don't want it to counteract the reduced pop growth to the point that cities still grow FASTER with higher education - though I THINK that it will depend on the size of the city and the BASE food yield obtained there as to how it really pans out. I'm ok with it if it's on average fairly balanced but would prefer to more often than not see a little less real growth in higher education and the opposite true as well. Otherwise the point of this debate has been somewhat moot.
 
1) In the SVN thread the question came up if laboratories and such should also add education.

On one hand yes, since they also educate people (during their studies at university). Same for Hostpitals.

On the other hand, to be fair, most of the buildings need education. Even a plumber shows his apprentices how to plumb.

Opinions?


2) We could use new education civics like Rapid Learning and Instant Learning. Also... what is Timetravel Education? :crazyeye:
 
1) So you'd say no to Labs? The problem is, that in the Modern Era, your cities grow bigger and bigger and a lot of early education buildings are obsolete by then. So University and the Schools should give A LOT more education, since this is their only purpose. Otherwise our Population will get more and more stupid.

2) Do you want me to come up with stats for these Education civics?

3) And I think Time Travel Education is just... Weird. Even IF they lern history first hand, I don't think this would be any better than the education methods they have by then. In general, I am not happy with that tech since it would allow the first discoverer to instandly win the game. Maybe it is just Observating Timetravel... But well, we can discuss about that once the Galactic era is really part of this mod :crazyeye:
 
As I mentioned elsewhere I think the Housing buildings should use up the Education property.

Starting at Writing the highest class building, ie your Palace, should use 1 Education point per population in the city.

At City Planning we get access to the classic era housing but the richest also require Sewer Systems the building. At this point the Palace should use 2 per population with Villas and Palaces using 1 per population.

In the Renaissance the upper middle class housing should start using 1 education.

At Industrialisation upper class should be using 3 and middle class 2.

At compulsory education the rest use 1 education point per population.

Is it possible to have a property adjusted by the population of a city?

Faustmouse said:
Have you come to a conclusion on how you do the stories?
Will Myth's just get +Education hat Taxanomy and Heritage?
I'd still do them for you so you can focus on more interesting stuff, but I'm quite unsure how you want them.

Yes I want the Myths to adjust with era so they will be getting education when they loose science and eventually losing that education somewhere in The Enlightenment. However the Myth buildings only exist in one city so there needs to be a way to get that education to other cities which is where the Story and Stories buildings come in. Now that I have done two and played with them a bit I think I can specify them better. I will specify groups of them for you to do in the New Building thread.
 
As I mentioned elsewhere I think the Housing buildings should use up the Education property.

Starting at Writing the highest class building, ie your Palace, should use 1 Education point per population in the city.

At City Planning we get access to the classic era housing but the richest also require Sewer Systems the building. At this point the Palace should use 2 per population with Villas and Palaces using 1 per population.

In the Renaissance the upper middle class housing should start using 1 education.

At Industrialisation upper class should be using 3 and middle class 2.

At compulsory education the rest use 1 education point per population.

Is it possible to have a property adjusted by the population of a city?
Yes, sure, most properties have a source for population for all cities and you can do the same on buildings.
 
I get where the more advanced or 'high income zone' housing would take more education to represent that section of population is getting more educational 'attention' from the pool of 'attention' given to students. Makes sense. Except that it applies to ALL of the city population. Perhaps if we could identify that those buildings affected say 10% of the population will each reduce the education modifier level in the city at a higher rate, then like 30% are affected by the middle income housing then 60% are affected by the lowest income housing. Then we'd be more accurate I think. Plus, with these housing buildings we also have to consider that there may be multiple buildings existing in parallel with others for the same income level. So what, the effect to cost the city more education per population is entirely cumulative?

I think more development and careful planning needs to take place there to make the concept (which at its base I agree with) actually work properly. Ratios must be considered rather than a cumulative effect or that cumulativity will easily overwhelm and then it's better to simply have a flat rate cost on education per population as we already have.
 
I get where the more advanced or 'high income zone' housing would take more education to represent that section of population is getting more educational 'attention' from the pool of 'attention' given to students. Makes sense. Except that it applies to ALL of the city population. Perhaps if we could identify that those buildings affected say 10% of the population will each reduce the education modifier level in the city at a higher rate, then like 30% are affected by the middle income housing then 60% are affected by the lowest income housing. Then we'd be more accurate I think. Plus, with these housing buildings we also have to consider that there may be multiple buildings existing in parallel with others for the same income level. So what, the effect to cost the city more education per population is entirely cumulative?

I think more development and careful planning needs to take place there to make the concept (which at its base I agree with) actually work properly. Ratios must be considered rather than a cumulative effect or that cumulativity will easily overwhelm and then it's better to simply have a flat rate cost on education per population as we already have.

Well at any given time in the game (except for maybe prehistoric) the upper class buildings would be 1/3 of the housing buildings auto-built in a city. However sometimes if you don't have the right buildings built you will not even have an upper class. For example if you have no Marble or Sewers your cities may not have upper class housing.
 
Yes Luxury would be a good choice to influencing them.

Currently it works lie this.

Villas (Ancient/Classical Era | Low Density | High Wealth)
Req Tech: City Planning
Req Buildings: Sewers
Req Fresh Water: Yes
Req Resources: Bricks AND Marble
Req City Size: -

Palaces (Ancient/Classical Era | Medium Density | High Wealth)
Req Tech: City Planning
Req Buildings: Sewers
Req Fresh Water: Yes
Req Resources: Bricks AND Marble
Req City Size: 6

---

Manors (Medieval/Renaissance Era | Low Density | High Wealth)
Req Tech: Surveying
Req Buildings: Sewers
Req Fresh Water: Yes
Req Resources: Bricks AND Marble
Req City Size: -

Estates (Medieval/Renaissance Era | Medium Density | High Wealth)
Req Tech: Surveying
Req Buildings: Sewers
Req Fresh Water: Yes
Req Resources: Bricks AND Marble
Req City Size: 6

---

Mansions (Industrial/Modern Era | Low Density | High Wealth)
Req Tech: Electricity
Req Buildings: Sewers AND Water Pipes AND Telephone Network
Req Power: Yes
Req Resources: Marble
Req City Size: -

Condominiums (Industrial/Modern Era | Medium Density | High Wealth)
Req Tech: Electricity
Req Buildings: Sewers AND Water Pipes AND Telephone Network
Req Power: Yes
Req Resources: Marble
Req City Size: 6

Penthouse Suites (Industrial/Modern Era | High Density | High Wealth)
Req Tech: Electricity
Req Buildings: Sewers AND Water Pipes AND Telephone Network AND Skyscraper
Req Power: Yes
Req Resources: Marble
Req City Size: 13

---

Chateaus (Transhuman Era | Low Density | High Wealth)
Req Tech: Rapid Prototyping
Req Buildings: Sewers AND Water Pipes AND Telephone Network AND Computer Networks
Req Power: Yes
Req Resources: Marble
Req City Size: -

Hi-Tech Condominiums (Transhuman Era | Medium Density | High Wealth)
Req Tech: Rapid Prototyping
Req Buildings: Sewers AND Water Pipes AND Telephone Network AND Computer Networks
Req Power: Yes
Req Resources: Marble
Req City Size: 6

Holo-Suites (Transhuman Era | High Density | High Wealth)
Req Tech: Rapid Prototyping
Req Buildings: Sewers AND Water Pipes AND Telephone Network AND Computer Networks AND Skyscraper
Req Power: Yes
Req Resources: Marble
Req City Size: 13

Arcology Upperclass (Transhuman Era | Super Density | High Wealth)
Req Tech: Rapid Prototyping
Req Buildings: Sewers AND Water Pipes AND Telephone Network AND Computer Networks AND Arcology
Req Power: Yes
Req Resources: Marble
Req City Size: 25

Note we still need to make Megatower housing too. it would sit between Skyscraper and Arcology.

In the future we may want to have Luxury level be a requirement too.
 
Yes Luxury would be a good choice to influencing them.

[...]

In the future we may want to have Luxury level be a requirement too.

That's not what I meant... I was talking about having Luxury (and other requirements) actively influence how the distribution amongs the population is. High Luxury level: 80% upper class, 15% Medium Class, 5% Lower Class. Low Luxery level: 5% upper class, 15% medium Class, 80% lower class. (For example)
 
That's not what I meant... I was talking about having Luxury (and other requirements) actively influence how the distribution amongs the population is. High Luxury level: 80% upper class, 15% Medium Class, 5% Lower Class. Low Luxery level: 5% upper class, 15% medium Class, 80% lower class. (For example)

I understood and agree. :goodjob:
 
Question where can I find the education buildings to turn them off. Not really a fan of it, I tried to find them myself but I cant seem to figure out which file they are in or what they are called.
 
That's sadly true... A lot of people have problems with basic math, grammer, lack of reading skills or really suck in general knowledge.

That is definetly true in the UK, as years ago the Labour P.M. Tony Blair decided that the fairest thing in the U.K. education system was to bring every pupil down to the lowest level (easier than increasing standards.). So that thick/stupid/uneducated etc. kids did not feel inadequate. (excuse my spelling :)).

Now we are no longer in the top league of educated children, but near the bottom.

Well done Mr. Blair. :(
 
I've noticed that the academy that you build with a great scientist does not even have any literacy bonuses or education bonuses like the library and other educational buildings out has. So I was wondering are you guys going to change that?
 
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