Term 3 Judiciary

[Bootstoots]

Okay then, these proposals are ratified.

Any citizen comments on JR10?

 

[DaveShack]

Citizen comment on DG7JR10:

The culture flip interface is broken relative to captures. Since we are not presented with the option to raze immediately, we should accept the game interface limitations and interpret this to mean at the next opportunity. Note however that this is not a decision to be taken lightly, it will damage our reputation / state of relations with the other civs.

 

[Nobody]

We should just say to all the rebels.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

We should just say to all the rebels.

I agree with Nobody. Welcoming a city into Fanatik arms with the intention of leveling it the next turn is unsavory practice. The way our law is written, if we receive a city via culture flip then that is our one city from that nation.

 

[Provolution]

As you can say to your daughter, or something, "Just say NO"....

 

[DaveShack]

We should just say to all the rebels.

Nobody, it looks like nobody (besides me) noticed there is no no in your post.

DZ even quoted it as though there is a no, even though no no can be seen.

The debate isn't whether we should accept the rebels and then abandon their city, it is whether the law allows us to. There is nothing preventing the Foreign Minister (or is is the Expatriate Governor -- maybe that's another JR) from instructing the DP to rebuff all rebels no matter how this JR comes out.

 

[ravensfire]

This was posted by Provolution in the Instruction thread. As this is a real place for a question of this nature, I ask the Judiciary to give this a glance.

Just a question of reference. Do the Judiciary hold immunity to a designated player overriding elected official instructions, and is this a preferred practice?
This was merely a generic question.

-- Ravensfire, President of Fanatikos

 

[Black_Hole]

Just a question of reference. Do the Judiciary hold immunity to a designated player overriding elected official instructions, and is this a preferred practice?
This was merely a generic question.

No, the Judiciary will never give immunity for such an action. However, moderators can in the name of forum rules(*sigh*)

I would hope moderators would be considerate enough to not play if they cannot be held accountable for their actions. Otherwise citizens' rights are violated.

 

[Bootstoots]

Just a question of reference. Do the Judiciary hold immunity to a designated player overriding elected official instructions, and is this a preferred practice?
This was merely a generic question.

No, that's absurd. However, as noted above, moderators can overrule us.

Edit: Also, I'd appreciate if the other justices will make a ruling on JR10 soon, as there seems to be little discussion on it. I'll make my ruling after the other two have gone (like ravensfire has done in the last two turns).

 

[Gerikes]

Citizen Comment on DG7JR10.

I have to say that when I see immediately, I think immediately. That being said, I believe that when a city is captured (and the Constitution doesn't say "captured", it says "gained"), and the option to Raze or Keep is given, we have to raze it at that point in time (that is, of course, unless this is our "one city from this civ"). Whether or not we should keep it the turn then raze isn't the issue, the issue is whether or not we are allowed to do that. In my opinion, the Constitution says that we aren't.

Edits in bold.

 

[Black_Hole]

Ill make my ruling tomorrow, if any citizens wish to comment please do so soon

 

[Nobody]

We should just say to all the rebels.

That has got to be the stupidest post i have ever made, i dont even know what i was talking about...... oh i got it now i meant say no to citys when they request to culture flip. it makes sense to me. And provolution i would never say no to your daughter.

 

[mhcarver]

I find that a city acquired via cultural flip counts as the city acquired from another civ even if that city is abandoned after one turn, for My reasoning I would like to reference this ruling in which the court determined that we may not abandon a city to take another one. And quite frankly abandoning is not the same as auto-razing , you have to actually hold a city to abandon it, so I find that cities acquired via culture and abandoned immediately afterwards still count as the one city from that civ

 

[Black_Hole]

JR 10

I concur with mhcarver, getting a city by culture flip counts as that foreign empires one alotted city, if future flips occur by a civ already having the 1 alotted city taken, they must be rebuffed.
It also counts as a taken city if it is razed after 1 turn.

Bolded below is the key phrase that made my decision. Culture flips fall in the category "by any means"

Article C. Game Structure
No more than 5 cities built by Fanatikos may exist at any time. In addition, only one city from each foreign civilization may be taken by any means. All other cities that we gain must be razed immediately.

--The Judge Advocate

 

[Furiey]

....if future flips occur by a civ already having the 1 alotted city taken, they must be autorazed.

Mr Judge Advocate, a comment about your statement above.

There is no option to autoraze when a city flips to us, the only options given to us would be to accept the city, or to rebuff the rebels. If we choose rebuff, the city will not be razed but stay with the original Civ.

 

[Black_Hole]

Mr Judge Advocate, a comment about your statement above.

There is no option to autoraze when a city flips to us, the only options given to us would be to accept the city, or to rebuff the rebels. If we choose rebuff, the city will not be razed but stay with the original Civ.

my mistake, that was what I meant

 

[DaveShack]

I see we're still bent on taking the most difficult (game-wise) approach possible, logical arguments to the contrary notwithstanding.

 

[Bootstoots]

The question has been asked: Do cities obtained through a cultural flip count towards the one city per civ limit, even if razed at the beginning of the next turn? To address this, I'll quote Article C of the Constitution. It states:

Article C. Game Structure
No more than 5 cities built by Fanatikos may exist at any time. In addition, only one city from each foreign civilization may be taken by any means. All other cities that we gain must be razed immediately.

As far as I can tell, the cultural flip and immediate autoraze of a foreign city would indeed count towards the one city per civ limit. I have several reasons for this ruling.

First, according to DG7JR8, which occurred last term, we may not abandon a foreign city in order to take another city from the same civ. Even though we would never have held two cities simultaneously during that time, the actual time frame we held them has been found to be irrelevant. Therefore, according to past judicial precident, taking a city by cultural flip would count towards the requirement, regardless of how brief the timespan is.

Another argument I have for this ruling is that the article, as noted by the other Justices, most definitely includes cultural flips. Its second sentence states that only one city from each foreign civilization may be taken by any means, a definition that very clearly includes cultural flips as well as acquisitions by treaty. Since it says that only one city may be taken by any means, taking another city, even if immediately disbanded, is unconstitutional.

Additionally, though the third sentence may seem to allow this as long as the city acquired is "razed immediately," it seems fairly obvious that the Constitution's use of "immediately" does not allow us to flip a city and then abandon it. The intent of this article, as far as I can tell, is to prevent us from taking any advantage of owning more than one city from the same foreign power simultaneously. Allowing us to do this would undermine the variant we chose to play, which allows only one city from each foreign power, period. This article is written to back that up. Because of this, I'd say that "razed immediately" in the third sentence refers to the razing of a city as it is being captured, not capture (including by cultural flip) and subsequent abandonment.

It is acknowledged that putting such stringent limits on ourselves may appear to be a form of shooting ourselves in the foot. However, it must be remembered that we chose to do just that, in the name of a challenge.

In summary, I concur with the other two justices in this ruling.

 

[Bootstoots]

Judicial ruling - DG7JR10

By a 3-0 decision, the Judiciary ruled that cities that are acquired due to a culture flip and then are immediately razed do count towards the one city per civ limit.

 

[DaveShack]

Greetings Justices,

I would like to request an urgent Judicial Review of the attached bill amending Article C of the Constitution. This review is being requested in parallel with the citizen discussion to expedite the process, so that ratification can occur prior to our (hopefully) upcoming peace with Germany. Please act on this review assuming the posted text does not need further changes via the discussion process.

========================================

Proposed poll:

Do you approve this amendment to Article C of the Constitution?
Yes/No/Abstain

Note: New text is provided both with and without formatting. The "unformatted" version is the one to be included in the Constitution. The "formatted" version is provided for your reference only and is not binding. Any disagreement between the formatted and unformatted version is incidental and does not affect amendment passage.

Current text:

Article C. Game Structure
No more than 5 cities built by Fanatikos may exist at any time. In addition, only one city from each foreign civilization may be taken by any means. All other cities that we gain must be razed immediately.
​

Proposed new text without formatting (official copy):

Article C. Game Structure
No more than 5 cities built by Fanatikos may exist at any time. In addition, only one city from each foreign civilization taken by any means may be held by Fanatikos at the end of a turn. Any other cities beyond the limits stated in this article must be razed immediately or abandoned prior to the end of the turn. Foreign cities may be acquired during a turn or between turns as long as enough cities are abandoned prior to the end of the turn to comply with the limits stated in this article.
​

Proposed new text (non-binding copy, provided for reference only):

Article C. Game Structure
No more than 5 cities built by Fanatikos may exist at any time. In addition, only one city from each foreign civilization may be taken by any means may be held by Fanatikos at the end of a turn. Any other cities beyond the limits stated in this article must be razed immediately or abandoned prior to the end of the turn. Foreign cities may be acquired during a turn or between turns as long as enough cities are abandoned prior to the end of the turn to comply with the limits stated in this article.
​