tesbs further flavored civilizations [development thread]

[Tarquelne]

A hidden city will, no longer trade and have its worktile radius reduced to 1.

Nifty. Sounds at least as good as freezing the population. Probably quite a bit better.

But now the pop-freeze code needs to be applied to something else. Unused code can go rotten and spoil your HD.

An idea:
Base the "Minlevel" off the casters level. Level -3, or /2, or whatever. Might be neat for Sindar archmages.

EDIT: The .setMinLevel effect doesn't go away when the building does. As far as I know it has to be turned off with specific python.

This might be the way to go.

Spoiler :

		if gc.getPlayer(pCity.getOwner()).getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_SIDAR'):
			if pCity.getNumRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_HIDDEN_CITY')) > 0:
				pPlot.setMinLevel(5)
			else:
				pPlot.setMinLevel(-1)

This would turn the "wall" on and off at the beginning of a turn. To turn it off as soon as a unit is killed you'd need something similar on "onUnitKiller" or "onUnitLost".
EDIT#2: I haven't tried out the python above. It may have syntax errors. (Or any other kind, too.)

 

[Valkrionn]

Update: Sidar

The concept:
I liked the background of the sidar to quote the manual:

Sadly this did not translate too well into the actual gameplay, so i added the option for the sidar to hide their cities.

After researching passage through the ether, every sidar mage* will gain the ability to hide one of their cities.

Spoiler :

A hidden city will, no longer trade and have its worktile radius reduced to 1. On the other hand it will be much harder to conquer and the surroundings mists will give a benefit to the food production.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

It will also give a bonus to units within the city:

Spoiler :

For the Hidden City to work you need to add

Spoiler :

def spellHideCity(caster):
	pPlot = caster.plot()
	pPlot.setMinLevel(5)

to python. (I have not tested this yet, it should work since it is only a copy of wall of force. Thanks to Tarquelne )

I am still tweaking a bit the graphics, i will therefore post the files and ingame screenshots a bit later. Since the Hidden City requires the mage to stay, highly promoted assassins will be the best counter.


*adepts, mages and archmages with at least level 6

This is an excellent concept; We had considered adding a Mist feature for them in RifE, but I think I actually prefer your method.

You might want to get Sephi to merge the level-based Immortality from Orbis, I think it works much better for shades than settling them as GPs.

Mind if I steal this once you're done with it?

 

[Brokenbone]

Neat concept for Sidar. Very interesting!

I get the impression from the engulfing mists promo that there's invisibility dispelled by combat, would that mean that if an "experienced" level found your city and started hammering defenders, they'd become briefly visible (assuming they won combats) so that other non level 5 units could see them? Like have some level 5 mounted units bloody some noses (relying on withdrawal) so that cannon fodder melee could attack?

 

[tesb]

@Valkrionn

Go ahead and rob me

@Brokenbone:
the concept of "find your cities" is the same as the wall of force or ring of carcer, it just prevents units with lvl 4 or less to enter the tile meaning they can't attack the city as long as it is hidden. technically they still know and see it is there.
any invisible units in a city will defend it, even if undetected. at least in the tests that i did. i gave the barbarians some cities with invisible units like shadows, angels of death etc. and when i attacked them with units that can not detect invisible units, the city was still being defended.

I added the line removed by combat, for the case the player/ai strikes out from the city. for example if you see an enemy stack some tiles away and attack the enemy will not see you coming but afterwards you are caught with you pants down (unless you have enough movement points to reenter your city).

@Taquelne:
i have no clue about the python code, but a simple modified copy of the wall of force should do.

I really like the idea of making the level requirement dependent on the casters level ,but how would the game handle if there are two mages in a city? what if the higher level mage dies etc. etc. must all be foolproof.

i dropped the freezing population because it just does not seem fit to hide gigantic cities and it does not make much sense either, why would they no longer use food?

 

[Valkrionn]

@Valkrionn

Go ahead and rob me

Will do so, with some modifications of our own.

I had not considered making them 'invisible' the way you did. It's actually a rather simple approach, that conveys it well for the type of game... Nice idea.

 

[esvath]

I really like the idea of making the level requirement dependent on the casters level ,but how would the game handle if there are two mages in a city? what if the higher level mage dies etc. etc. must all be foolproof.

How about giving the mage/archmage that cast the spell a promotion (say, x-promo)? Then, each turn, the python will search for unit with x-promo. If it found one, it will set <unit-with-x-promo level/2> to the plot. If it found none (the unit is killed), it will set the plot into (-1)?

This is very nice idea . One thing, though, will the AI understand this or this is a player-only plaything? I do hope that the AI understand this and consider these tweaks as it strategy.

 

[tesb]

the ai is able to cast the spell and research the tech, but i don't know how much of a priority the tech is for the sidar in the ai code. so it could take a while for the ai to acquire this ability.


i will test this out in the editor to see if there are any issues. (giving the ai the tech and some lvl 6 adapts and cities)

i will also try to make the units within this city immune to ranged attacks (i mean the ability, not the generic attack of ranged units)

 

[Valkrionn]

How about giving the mage/archmage that cast the spell a promotion (say, x-promo)? Then, each turn, the python will search for unit with x-promo. If it found one, it will set <unit-with-x-promo level/2> to the plot. If it found none (the unit is killed), it will set the plot into (-1)?

This is very nice idea . One thing, though, will the AI understand this or this is a player-only plaything? I do hope that the AI understand this and consider these tweaks as it strategy.

That's one of my questions as well. The method of implementation will be different in RifE (and I've already explained it to tesb, but it requires a new feature that isn't announced yet so I'll refrain from mentioning it. Should hopefully be out in a week or so), and with our version the AI will pretty much always be able to use it.

Main thing I'm worried about is the AI getting a unit of the correct level and getting it back to a city in order to cast it. Would mention shading as well, but the AI is actually blocked from doing that. Unless Sephi added AI for that that I didn't read about, of course.

the ai is able to cast the spell and research the tech, but i don't know how much of a priority the tech is for the sidar in the ai code. so it could take a while for the ai to acquire this ability.


i will test this out in the editor to see if there are any issues. (giving the ai the tech and some lvl 6 adapts and cities)

i will also try to make the units within this city immune to ranged attacks (i mean the ability, not the generic attack of ranged units)

Haha, I see you took what I said in the PM into account there.

One question for you: Why not just prevent FOREIGN traderoutes in the city, rather than trade altogether? If the tag doesn't exist yet, it should be relatively simple to add, and Sephi has added some for you before. This way, the Sidar still get SOME trade.

 

[esvath]

One question for you: Why not just prevent FOREIGN traderoutes in the city, rather than trade altogether? If the tag doesn't exist yet, it should be relatively simple to add, and Sephi has added some for you before. This way, the Sidar still get SOME trade.

It exists in base FfH

 

[tesb]

One question for you: Why not just prevent FOREIGN traderoutes in the city, rather than trade altogether? If the tag doesn't exist yet, it should be relatively simple to add, and Sephi has added some for you before. This way, the Sidar still get SOME trade.

Imho any trading gives away the hidden nature of the city. Just imagine an invader: "Those are thick clouds we are lost where is the city to attack? Maybe we should ask that trade caravan over there?"

To be more serious i like the uniques of the feature, and to just disable foreign trade routes takes away from that. (this is true for every feature, not just the ones i create)

 

[Valkrionn]

It exists in base FfH

Then I would use that, honestly.

Imho any trading gives away the hidden nature of the city. Just imagine an invader: "Those are thick clouds we are lost where is the city to attack? Maybe we should ask that trade caravan over there?"

To be more serious i like the uniques of the feature, and to just disable foreign trade routes takes away from that. (this is true for every feature, not just the ones i create)

Meh, that would depend on if it was an outside caravan (which would be blocked), or a Sidar caravan made up of those who know how to travel through the mist without giving away their position.

I like uniqueness too, but I think it has plenty without removing all trade. You're dropping city radius already; Do this to all your cities and your economy will be hit hard. At least if you remove shading to GPs, which I intend to do (dislike it as a mechanic, as the rest of FfH places a HEAVY focus on promoted units, and the AI can't use it). Leaving intra-civ trade allows you to keep your economy from crashing.

 

[tesb]

I do not know if sephi wants to change to shading mechanic. I, as a player, like it. Maybe he is writing code for it in the future so the ai can make use of it.


To me the removal of trade is a design choice:
1)
you are not forced to use it, if you think you economy will suffer too much then only cast the spell in certain cities or don't use it at all.
2)
The removal of trade and the reduction of the worktile radius will also make shading great persons that much more important, if you still want to compete and not only survive.

If the test games however convey that that is too much of an issue i will modify it of course.


In the end it comes down to sephi, it is his mod and he is free to tweak, merge whatever he likes. This applies to everyone who wants to use these files: feel free to use and tweak them as you see fit.

 

[Valkrionn]

I do not know if sephi wants to change to shading mechanic. I, as a player, like it. Maybe he is writing code for it in the future so the ai can make use of it.

Meh, I really dislike it. It's far too strong, the AI is incapable of using it, and just not a good representation of shades in the lore. I mean, what's the one civ people go to for OCC games? Sidar. Why? Unlimited specialists.

Ahwaric's version is a much better representation of shades in general.

To me the removal of trade is a design choice:
1)
you are not forced to use it, if you think you economy will suffer too much then only cast the spell in certain cities or don't use it at all.
2)
The removal of trade and the reduction of the worktile radius will also make shading great persons that more important, if you still want to compete and not only survive.

If the test games however convey that that is too much of an issue i will modify it of course.


In the end it comes down to sephi, it is his mod and he is free to tweak, merge whatever he likes. This applies to everyone who wants to use these files: feel free to use and tweak them as you see fit.

I agree that it's a design choice. Just that it's not one I like.

If you go with your victory suggestions for them (have all cities invisible), than no, it is not optional. So if your economy suffers that badly (less worked plots, no trade, smaller cities so slower production) from something required for victory, something is wrong IMO.

And again, I dislike shading. It doesn't fit the lore for shades, and feels to me like it was just thrown in for lack of a better idea. Ahwaric's version is a better one, IMO.

So I guess our versions will be rather different. RifE's will have mists as a feature, not building; No foreign trade, not no trade; No shading, instead Shade race granted at level 6 and bringing a level-based immortality; And the spell will be different, but you already know how and it's not something I'm at liberty to say.

 

[Sephi]

Update: Sidar

The concept:
I liked the background of the sidar to quote the manual:

Sadly this did not translate too well into the actual gameplay, so i added the option for the sidar to hide their cities.

After researching passage through the ether, every sidar mage* will gain the ability to hide one of their cities.

Spoiler :

A hidden city will, no longer trade and have its worktile radius reduced to 1. On the other hand it will be much harder to conquer and the surroundings mists will give a benefit to the food production.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

It will also give a bonus to units within the city:

Spoiler :

For the Hidden City to work you need to add

Spoiler :

def spellHideCity(caster):
	pPlot = caster.plot()
	pPlot.setMinLevel(5)

to python. (I have not tested this yet, it should work since it is only a copy of wall of force. Thanks to Tarquelne )

I am still tweaking a bit the graphics, i will therefore post the files and ingame screenshots a bit later. Since the Hidden City requires the mage to stay, highly promoted assassins will be the best counter.


*adepts, mages and archmages with at least level 6

Sounds like a very interesting concept. Wall of Force doesn't use the minlevel mechanic though in Wildmana and it would only cause a lot of problems (golems for example).

Some suggestions:
A "lost in the mist" effect could be added to hidden cities that similar to fear prevents a battle from taking place. There could be a base chance for this effect that is modified by other buildings in the city or level of enemy unit.

I would also move it from a lategame mechanic to a midgame mechanic so that it has a larger effect on the game. No Trade should be enough of a penalty or maybe also culture penalty. Also gives an incentive not to open borders. The Sidar Worldspell could also hide all Sidar cities and Sidar archmages are able to hide cities permanently (a bit above what an adept can do I think).

 

[tesb]

Wall of Force doesn't use the minlevel mechanic though in Wildmana

Is the tooltip for wall of force wrong then? Does it 'only' give +50% defense? And i thought my cities were safe

A "lost in the mist" effect could be added to hidden cities that similar to fear prevents a battle from taking place. There could be a base chance for this effect that is modified by other buildings in the city or level of enemy unit.

This sounds very good too, i would base it on the enemies level or even better on his sight radius, if this is possible. Could you provide me with the code or even better a tag (for buildingsinfos).?

I would also move it from a lategame mechanic to a midgame mechanic so that it has a larger effect on the game. No Trade should be enough of a penalty or maybe also culture penalty.

so you would drop the working tile radius penalty? to be honest i rather like it. especially since you can still get a very good economy with shading great persons, in fact it would emphasize it even more.

The Sidar Worldspell could also hide all Sidar cities and Sidar archmages are able to hide cities permanently (a bit above what an adept can do I think).

I don't quite understand the distinction you draw here between the hidden city from the worldspell and the one from the archmage.

As of now the buildings require the caster to stay in the city, what i could do is:
1) Drop that penalty. So it does not require a caster to stay present in the city.
2) The worldspell hides all cities, this can be cast very early in the game.
3) If the worldspell is already cast the only way to hide additional cities is through archmages. Since it takes 10 turns to cast and you can have only 4 archmages it is not spamable.

 

[Tarquelne]

Is the tooltip for wall of force wrong then? Does it 'only' give +50% defense?

Yep. Or, at least, I can't find the code anywhere in WM.

If you don't use the "off the shelf" setMinLevel you would have quite a few other options. Did you know that setMinLevel will keep out Sidar units, too?

Though I don't know how you'd set up the python to make sure it can "catch" units mid turn or just before combat. onUnitMove?)


*I* like the radius 1/no trade set up.

A WS that can be cast early hiding current cities + ability to add more cities later would be good.

 

[Neomega]

I really don't get it. Why would anyone want to give up 12 tiles of production, and all trade, for a small defensive bonus?

Is this only supposed to be used on cities about to be attacked?

 

[tesb]

At first is was intended that it gives a huge defensive bonus (level 5 or lower units can't attack) and to compensate it would be quite a hit to your economy. keep in mind the sidar run a specialist economy anyway. who cares if you can't work that many tiles, if your cities are that much protected and you can just shade the specialists. I also don't want it to be a straight out bonus, but rather a different option to play the game.

However, the more the defensive bonus is reduced, the harder it is to justify the reduced economy.

I am fine with changing it to a percentage based attack probability akin to fear, but i agree with you some of the restrictions on the economy have to be lifted.

 

[Brokenbone]

I like where the % chance "lost in the mist" (fear clone) is going.

Just like "courage" overcomes fear, some other things might counter it, some on a % basis, others "absolutely."

Perfect Sight for instance may be a complete mist-buster. Some golems get it, right? It's also the final link in the Sentry promotions list I think.

The currently low-use Empyrean power about revelation, which breaks off HN status from units, could be adjusted to add a one turn, 100% chance of wearing off type of mistbusting promotion, whether for themselves or the stack... or alternately it could dispel "misty" status on the defenders which will be reacquired next turn (and lost again if the Vicar is autocasting). As with any magic there should be a chance to resist, but if you bring a big stack of vicars blowing off revelation spells, that's maybe a valid RP strategy in Sidar lands full of ghosts and whatnot. (Reminds me, Revelation doesn't dispel Hidden status does it? Be a much better spell if it did!)

 

[Valkrionn]

I like where the % chance "lost in the mist" (fear clone) is going.

Just like "courage" overcomes fear, some other things might counter it, some on a % basis, others "absolutely."

Perfect Sight for instance may be a complete mist-buster. Some golems get it, right? It's also the final link in the Sentry promotions list I think.

The currently low-use Empyrean power about revelation, which breaks off HN status from units, could be adjusted to add a one turn, 100% chance of wearing off type of mistbusting promotion, whether for themselves or the stack... or alternately it could dispel "misty" status on the defenders which will be reacquired next turn (and lost again if the Vicar is autocasting). As with any magic there should be a chance to resist, but if you bring a big stack of vicars blowing off revelation spells, that's maybe a valid RP strategy in Sidar lands full of ghosts and whatnot. (Reminds me, Revelation doesn't dispel Hidden status does it? Be a much better spell if it did!)

As do I; I think it's a better mechanic over all.

Another spell that could help is Fair Winds; It's currently a very niche spell, and would fit well for clearing out Mist.