tesbs further flavored civilizations [development thread]

[tesb]

thanks sephi that opens up a very good way of implementing those rituals
I am done with the numbers crunching:

Death Pact (repeatable ritual, adds population to the city it is build in):

Spoiler :

So researching those techs will give you a higher city population cap. I decided to keep the ratio of cost to added population constant, because there will be new building (they will replace useless buildings such as the infirmary) which decrease the build time of rituals (local, i.e. only in that city).

If you want to exceed the population cap you will need to build the global version, which is not limited, but more expansive and will decreases faction standings.

I post the costs of the global version later. I assume i will finish the rituals, missing pedia entries and buildings today or tomorrow. I will also have to block the building celestial compass, since it would have a too significant impact.

Edit:
Just to clarify things. Currently one population costs 60 hammers (which is a lot less then scions for example) however keep in mind that upgrading your skeletons cost population too. For example a generic Champion costs 120 hammers. The Aristrakh pendant is the Skeleton Spearmen Company which costs 25 Hammers and 2 Population i.e. it will cost 145 hammers. Keep in mind that it is weaker then the champion (if Sephi implements the noupkeep tag it will not be a drain on you gold income however). There will be buildings (currently they replace the infirmary and the theater) that will decrease the ritual cost in the city they are build in.

The Palace will start with a bit higher production bonus then normal palaces (maybe +2 or +3 hammers instead of +1) so your capital gains the starting population a bit quicker. Keep in mind you don't need food, so your cities probably will have a higher production then cities of the same size from other civilizations. There will also be replacements to lower tier buildings that are of no use to the Aristrakh like the smokehouse for example. Those replacements will be cheap and will add a bit of gold and production, to help a city start off.

 

[tesb]

the global version is done too:

It will start at 800 hammers and decreases by 100 until it only costs 400. It gets cheaper at Knowledge of the Ether, Sorcery, Arcane Lore and finally Strength of Will.
It increases the population in all cities by one (without any cap) and decreases your standings with other factions.

@Sephi
I have some issues however:
1) I would like to see the tag <bGraphicalOnly>1</bGraphicalOnly> also working with CIV4ProjectInfos.xml, since it has 5 versions in the code but the name stays the same, as does the description.

2) I don't know how to make it a national project like you said sephi (i.e. it is repeatable but can only be build one at a time.)

3) Sadly the <help> tag does not work either in projectinfos. I added the changes of those rituals in the first line of the pedia. However it would be much better laid out if the player could immediately see what the ritual does, without going to the pedia. This could clear up the other rituals as well.

I will now finish the buildings and pedia entries and upload the files this evening or tomorrow, then it lays in your hands to add the python code and the race should be finished.
Which means I can do other stuff

 

[DonQuigleone]

they have a very limited amount of vampires (12 ancient, 4 lords, 4 bruhjas, 2 dracolich riders, the hero, 4 phalanx, although if you switch from the calabim you can take your vampires over to the aristrakh) and their standard troops are very basic. it is quite a different race. also their population/recruitment mechanic works against their ability to gain xp, since most troops cost population. Of course if it turns out that they are really overpowered i will tweak them.

Certainly their limited numbers will work against them, but Istill don't see how you can really make Calabim Vampires more powerful. Calabim Vampire units are already so powerful that you can easily dominate across the board with them (their main disadvantage being that you're in dire straits before you manage to get them out there). Calabim vampires themselves could probably use a nerf as it is (even if they are quite cool).

Personally I think an easier way to make Calabim vampires more balanced would be to require them to have "estates" which use up food, and gives the vampire some boost.

IE-> have vamp in city -> build estate -> estate sucks up food production and vamp gains bonus (of some kind).

The infinite XP gain loop is far too overpowered as I see it. Perhaps something could be done regarding their age? Perhaps a succession of unique promos(as per Elohim Monks) related to their age and size of their estate.

How the new civ's vamps should function is another matter, but I suppose they could be Calabim vamps on steroids.

 

[tesb]

Certainly their limited numbers will work against them, but I still don't see how you can really make Calabim Vampires more powerful.

i am not making the calabim vampires any more powerful. i just gave them the option to become a different civilization. and like i said many times this new civilization will work quite differently. I get your point, but it simply does not apply to my work


edit:
the balance of this new civilization is whole different matter.
1) If you "convert" as a calabim leader to the aristrakh via the ritual, your regular vampires can not use feast or a mechanic akin to this, only units with the souldrinker promotion can (the ones i listed above), although you will be able to immediately convert up to 12 of your regular vampires to ancient ones.
2) your standard troops will cost population
3) you have to "buy" population, see above and your max. population is controlled by the technologies you have (read post 161)
4) if you want to go beyond the current population cap you have to "build" a second type of ritual that will lower the attitude of other civilizations towards you, meaning if you get too powerful it will cause war with most civilizations.
5) your elite troops are meant to be "overpowered" because they are few and your regular troops will be "underpowered" (i really don't like those terms)

last edit:

The infinite XP gain loop is far too overpowered as I see it. Perhaps something could be done regarding their age? Perhaps a succession of unique promos(as per Elohim Monks) related to their age and size of their estate.

I will not change the current civilizations, i may only add to them. if you feel that the core mechanic of the calabim is overpowered you should post in the balance thread

 

[Sephi]

@Sephi
I have some issues however:
1) I would like to see the tag <bGraphicalOnly>1</bGraphicalOnly> also working with CIV4ProjectInfos.xml, since it has 5 versions in the code but the name stays the same, as does the description.

2) I don't know how to make it a national project like you said sephi (i.e. it is repeatable but can only be build one at a time.)

3) Sadly the <help> tag does not work either in projectinfos. I added the changes of those rituals in the first line of the pedia. However it would be much better laid out if the player could immediately see what the ritual does, without going to the pedia. This could clear up the other rituals as well.

I will now finish the buildings and pedia entries and upload the files this evening or tomorrow, then it lays in your hands to add the python code and the race should be finished.
Which means I can do other stuff

just upload it with a list of current issues and I will take a look at it. I guess some things will need python/DLL modifications

 

[DonQuigleone]

I will not change the current civilizations, i may only add to them. if you feel that the core mechanic of the calabim is overpowered you should post in the balance thread

I suppose that changing vampire functionality can be examined later.

I like the current course of things, however are you sure the expending population thing won't be somewhat tedious, you'll basically be building every unit in a somewhat unnecessary 2 step process.

Another approach might be to have population gained through some different mechanism related to undeath (EG, units that die in your realm are reborn as undead...). I can't think of anything unique off the top of my head though. Maybe cities you raze would become a set of units you can settle in your empire?

Furthermore with population being gained from expending hammers on a ritual, won't it be quite difficult to increase your population in your commerce oriented cities? Likewise your Hammer oriented cities will boom to a large population?

 

[tesb]

just upload it with a list of current issues and I will take a look at it. I guess some things will need python/DLL modifications

i hope i can finish it today.

I like the current course of things, however are you sure the expending population thing won't be somewhat tedious, you'll basically be building every unit in a somewhat unnecessary 2 step process.

To avoid the tedious aspect of it, there will be different versions of death pact, see post 161. For example if you have a medium to large city and the necessary technology you will gain more population per ritual.

Another approach might be to have population gained through some different mechanism related to undeath (EG, units that die in your realm are reborn as undead...). I can't think of anything unique off the top of my head though. Maybe cities you raze would become a set of units you can settle in your empire?

I don't like to reward warmongering further. Also this would be too close to the scions for my tastes. This civilization is not necessarily focused on domination like some other evil civilizations, but rather on gaining power through means that are deemed to be a sacrilege to other civs, so war is coming to the Aristrakh.

Furthermore with population being gained from expending hammers on a ritual, won't it be quite difficult to increase your population in your commerce oriented cities? Likewise your Hammer oriented cities will boom to a large population?

No, since you maximum population is set by the technology you have and the population is fairly cheap. Cities with high production have the advantage that they can replace any population loss much faster (for example by upgrading your regular troops). You could set your commerce cities to produce the cheap basic version of your troops for example skeleton archers and move those to your high production cities where you upgrade them just to give an example. Bear in mind that you will need no food, so if you will have much more population open for production or commerce (build workshops/mines instead of farms).
Also there will be easily accessible buildings that will grant you a bit of production and later there will be buildings that will increase ritual production. (The buildings are done i just implementing the button as i type.)

 

[tesb]

I hope that iEnemyWarWearinessModifier is cumulative.

Buildings:

Spoiler :

1) Bone Cage (replaces Carnival): cost 100 adds 2 +20% +1%Enemy war weariness

2) Burial Mounds (takes place of granary): cost 40 adds 1 1

3) Catacombs (replaces theater): cost 250 adds 5 +30% -20% Maintenance +10%Ritual Production, can turn one citizen into bard, 1 happiness per culture rate

4) Corrupted Soil (replaces Inn): cost 160 adds 1 Trade route +50% trade route yield -25% foreign trade route yield +2

5) Halls of the Dead (replaces courthouse): cost 120 adds -40% maintenance -80 crime

6) Haunted Roads (replaces tavern): cost 220 adds 5 +1 Great Merchant grow +2 trade routes +75% trade route yield -50% foreign trade route yield

7) Haunted Tower (replaces market): cost 150 adds 3 2 can turn 1 citizen into sage and another into merchant

8) Mausoleum (replaces infirmary): cost 250 adds +25% heal per turn +10% ritual production

9) Soul Prison (replaces tax office): cost 120 adds +25% +1%enemy war weariness

10) Unearthed Graves (replaces smokehouse): cost 35 adds 2

11) Unholy Glyphs (replaces public baths): cost 150 adds 2% enemy war weariness -50% damage to defenses from enemy bombardment

12) Forlorn Vault (replaces Money change): cost 120 adds -20% maintenance +25% can turn one citizen into a merchant

 

[Sephi]

wow, those buttons look really cool

 

[Iskar Jarak]

with population coming through rituals I would suggest making Nikephoros have to be built or significantly weakening him, maybe with the option to gain strength later on.

 

[DonQuigleone]

A possible alternative to losing population on production of a unit would be to permanently set aside population instead. Certain units might require to constantly suck the energy out of souls to maintain their existence, preventing those souls (IE population in a city) from doing anything.

Also something that might be OP is that these guys right now could do a complete Infinite City Sprawl (combined with Guilds for unlimited specialists...) and utterly dominate, as previously ICSs were prevented by maintenance and the limited growth potential of cities (foodwise). With this Civ both are easily circumvented. There's still the placement limit of course, but some kind of sprawl would be way too easy and effective. Other Civ that use non-standard population gaining (like the Infernals or the Scions), don't have the near unlimited potential for growth this Civ would.

Perhaps I'm missing something. For instance a limited ability to build more cities, or some kind of total population cap would fix the easy infinite growth loop here.

Basically you could build a near unlimited supply of cities with the following pattern:

Build City -> use solely engineer specialists to pump up population-> when done use population in the form of merchants to gain large amounts of cash to maintain the next wave of cities.

The main obstacle would be the first few rituals a city builds, which would take rather a long a time, so perhaps in practice it wouldn't be so bad.

 

[tesb]

with population coming through rituals I would suggest making Nikephoros have to be built or significantly weakening him, maybe with the option to gain strength later on.

agreed

Perhaps I'm missing something. For instance a limited ability to build more cities, or some kind of total population cap would fix the easy infinite growth loop here.

Basically you could build a near unlimited supply of cities with the following pattern:

Build City -> use solely engineer specialists to pump up population-> when done use population in the form of merchants to gain large amounts of cash to maintain the next wave of cities.

The main obstacle would be the first few rituals a city builds, which would take rather a long a time, so perhaps in practice it wouldn't be so bad.

there will be a base population cap based on technology, see post 161. if you go beyond that using the dark pact ritual you will be facing yourself at war with most civilizations soon. the scenario you describe is unlikely since guilds come very late and the map will be settled by than.

If you actually break down the numbers you will see that gaining population early on will not be that fast. 60 for dark pact I means that even if you settle your city next to mountain with a mine (4) and the city is on a plain tile (2) you still need 10 turns to gain a population of two. that is slower than a normal city with a good farm. bear in mind that to defend your cities properly you will need better troops that cost you population.

I can see your points, but unless they are derived from actual gameplay this theory crafting gets a bit out of hand. If they will turn out to be overpowered i will of course tweak them. I could for example set the acolytes to national limit of one so you can build only one city at a time and only after you build that new city you can build additional acolytes move them to their settling spot and build the next city and so on.

as previously ICSs were prevented by maintenance and the limited growth potential of cities (foodwise).

they are limited wise, their cities still cost you maintenance and getting actual combat ready troops out will further limit the ability to spam cities. keep in mind that there are still barbarians and keeping them at bay might turn out more to be difficult then with other civilizations. i disagree with you that cities are limited on food, i never had problems with that, in most cases i found myself limited by happiness. I just don't see why this civilization would be more prone to city spam then other civilizations. A normal city can grow and build, the aristrakh can do only either. A normal city gets food production bonus for settlers and workers the aristrakh don't. A normal city growth is limited by happiness, the aristrakh cities are limited in growth on tech progress. Both will have to deal with maintenance of those cities.

Please don't get me wrong, i like your input. Nobody wants an overpowered civilization

Edit: i changed the palace to give +3 instead of +1 so early population gain in your capital will not be that hard combined with god king in the early game.

Edit 2: celestial compass is disabled for this civilization.

 

[tesb]

@Sephi:

here are all new/modified files.

Current Issues:
Core Python Implementation that needs to be done:
1)
- Death Pact I: only build-able in cities of size 1-5, adds 1 population
- Death Pact II: only build-able in cities of size 6-8, adds 2 population
- Death Pact III: only build-able in cities of size 9-13, adds 3 population
- Death Pact III: only build-able in cities of size 14-16, adds 4 population
- Death Pact IV: only build-able in cities of size 17-25, adds 5 population

2)
-Dark Ritual: Adds 1 Population in all cities you own, lowers faction standings
(this must be done with all 5 versions)
-need to be a national project, like you wrote (i.e. is repeatable but only build able one at a time)

3)
-The world spell (you got this already)

4)
-Implementing the code for Death's Embrace Project, so the calabim can merge into the aristrakh. completing this project should also kill all your nonvampiric living units.



Nice to have:
1)
<help> tag working within CIV4ProjectInfo.xml

2)
<bGraphicalOnly> tag working within CIV4ProjectInfo.xml





Changes i made:
The aristrakh start with an acolytes unit (settler) 2 skeleton spearmen and 1 zombies unit. (i.e. no more hero from the get go, nikephoros is build able once fanaticism is researched)

The colors are only incremental changed from calabim colors, so ingame they will look the same, but the borders will not merge.


Edit:
You can comment out or delete the old spells that add population in aristrakh_civ4spellinfos.xml
==>
SPELL_ADD_POPULATION_GLOBAL5
SPELL_ADD_POPULATION_GLOBAL4
SPELL_ADD_POPULATION_GLOBAL3
SPELL_ADD_POPULATION_GLOBAL2
SPELL_ADD_POPULATION_GLOBAL1

SPELL_ADD_POPULATION_LOCAL5
SPELL_ADD_POPULATION_LOCAL4
SPELL_ADD_POPULATION_LOCAL3
SPELL_ADD_POPULATION_LOCAL2
SPELL_ADD_POPULATION_LOCAL1

 

[tesb]

Open questions:
How do i assign a background picture for the cityscreen and researchscreen etc. ? I would be fine if they use the calabim screens, but i could also make new ones.

How can i change the appearance of improvements (the cities should look the same)? I guess i have to make a new artstyle for them too?

 

[DonQuigleone]

I quite like this civ, and how it's developing. I still think that it has more potential for city spam then other civs would, but I'll wait until the civ is in-game to discuss balance.

However, at what point will you be able to switch from Calabim to Aristrakh? For instance you said you would transfer your already existing vampires to ancient vampires(if I'm reading correctly) but if this is an early game switch the player won't even have Vampires.

Also if the player loses all their living units, won't that:

1. Leave the player very vulnerable? How will they gain an army quick enough to prevent extant barbarians swiping cities out from under you?

2. Be "unfun", as you'll be losing some favourite promoted units, and valuable ones like heroes or mages? Perhaps being able to bring a limited number of troops over would be good. For instance perhaps you could transfer units above a certain level, or something, or give the Calabim an early game undead unit to build, so they can prepare for the switch before hand.

 

[tesb]

switching is done via the ritual death's embrace which is available once fanaticism is unlocked. you don't have to build the ritual the timing is up to the player. you are not transferring all vampires but all vampiric units, this is quite a difference (just give your mages/ religious heroes the vampire promotion).

Once you switched your vampires can cast a spell that transforms them into ancient ones.

edit:

1. Leave the player very vulnerable? How will they gain an army quick enough to prevent extant barbarians swiping cities out from under you?

skeletons are cheap to build but very weak, if you need a fast defense build them and upgrade them (costs population)

 

[Valkrionn]

Just popping in to show you how I'm making use of your skeleton art.

I've modified the two skeletons with shields; Added the flag to them, to provide a clear progression. Used both of them as the third unit, the central unit has the shield on his arm while the other two have it on their backs. The fourth unit in the line is actually your Vampire Phalanx... Looks suitably undead, and is otherwise fitting.

The buttons are yours as well (Skeleton1, Skeleton2, VampirePhalanx, Nikephoros), just recolored to have a dark purple background, in keeping with the rest of the button art for them.



Thanks for allowing me to use it!

 

[tesb]

glad you like if you encounter any issues please let me know

edit: if have knowledge of 3d programs or know people who do, i have a problem: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=366263

 

[DonQuigleone]

switching is done via the ritual death's embrace which is available once fanaticism is unlocked.

All sounds good to me.

But wouldn't that mean that the first three or four pop gain rituals tech prerequisites will be long gained by the time you become this civ? Why bother having those prerequisites at all?

 

[tesb]

you can also start as the Aristrakh like any other civ:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9217291&postcount=131