That Other Jimmy Carter Topic

[Klaus Hergersheimer]

I'll start:

an older opinion piece, but it has a particular excerpt whose story sort-of grinds my gears a bit, especially when I think about US-presidency-as-a-public-service:

Jimmy Carter

Jimmy Carter's post-presidential career has been characterized by a seemingly irresistible impulse to continue the presidency that American voters...

slate.com

During the buildup to the Gulf War in 1990 and 1991, Carter unsuccessfully worked to undermine the foreign policy of America’s democratically elected president, George Bush. Carter behaved as the Imperial Ex-President, conducting a guerrilla foreign policy operation that competed with the actual president’s. What’s disturbing about this behavior is not that Carter opposed war with Iraq.Many Democrats opposed going to war, and they worked within the American system to try to prevent a war that many predicted would be bloody (which it was, for Iraq). But Carter went further than merely lobbying Congress to oppose military action or speaking out in an effort to tilt popular opinion against the coming war. He used his status as a former president to engage in foreign policy, a deliberate effort to subvert the democratic process.

In November 1990, two months after Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait, Carter wrote a letter to the heads of state of the permanent members of the United Nations Security Council. He urged the countries to drop their support for Bush’s proposed military solution. Instead, as Douglas Brinkley outlines in The Unfinished Presidency, his glowing but not uncritical assessment of Carter’s post-presidential years, Carter asked the countries to give “unequivocal support to an Arab League effort” for peace. (As Brinkley notes, Carter’s anti-war position conflicted with the Carter Doctrine he had outlined as president: Any “attempt by any outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such force will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force.”) Right up to Bush’s Jan. 15 deadline for [The Gulf] war, Carter continued his shadow foreign policy campaign. On Jan. 10, he wrote the leaders of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Syria and asked them to oppose the impending military action. “I am distressed by the inability of either the international community or the Arab world to find a diplomatic solution to the Gulf crisis,” he wrote. “I urge you to call publicly for a delay in the use of force while Arab leaders seek a peaceful solution to the crisis. You may have to forego approval from the White House, but you will find the French, Soviets, and others fully supportive. Also, most Americans will welcome such a move.” Former National Security Adviser Brent Scowcroft later accused Carter of violating the Logan Act, the law that prohibits American citizens from conducting unofficial foreign policy.

[Story goes on to describe him negotiating with North Korea, but that sort-of makes Bill Clinton sound worse for letting him do it in the first place, so I can't fault him too much there.]

Admittedly I wasn't around when he was president. Nor do I think I even felt the effects of his presidency.

But the general vibe I got from him in later years is someone who was maybe "too good" for being in the office. (And that's not necessarily a positive. It's just...being overqualified).

What I mean is I think his commitments to something far greater exceeded what should have been his first loyalties. Perhaps he was a great human being; I'd be fine with that. But being the US president was not the way to do that. And certainly not by using that very office to pad his resume, to undermine a coalition to stop a guy who not only invaded but annexed an Arab League state. (What, you think your average peace group could get an appointment with the Arab League and tell them 'no to war'? Yeah I didn't think so.)

Ok I'm done. Tell me he was good and I'm wrong.

 

[Arwon]

Moderator Action: Edited by Birdjaguar

A full month of official mourning and half mast flags seems a very surprisingly monarchical styling! It's a fair bit longer than the week or so than the Queen got, and dead political figures in this constitutional monarchy, like prime ministers, only get a day.

 

[Voidwalkin]

Gahaaaaahaha. It made me laugh that you cared enough about Carter to start this thread. Peculiar. I didn't think even his opponents cared about him that much. It's like a Dem critiquing Ford. It's not inconceivable it's just odd.

I hope you will mention Richard Nixon's sabotage of peace agreements, which were perhaps a bit more egregious. For the sake of fairness.

 

[Klaus Hergersheimer]

That was like 30 years ago. So you can go dig up that corpse if you want fairness.

There was a topic about Henry Kissinger's death; don't know where that went.

 

[Voidwalkin]

For the unaware, Nixon is speculated to have forwarded the wife of the Flying Tigers commander as his agent, to sabotage LBJ's peace talks. She is speculated to have told South Vietnamese leadership "hold on, Nixon'll get ya a better deal".

I think it's just presumed private citizens use the stature of formerly holding the presidency to lobby. Trump is speculated to have done so with Netanyahu, I believe before he won.

I dunno Carter shouldn't be judged too harshly. The Logan Act is pretty routinely ignored.

 

[Zardnaar]

Last honest US president.

 

[JollyRoger]

The economy under Carter was negatively impacted by Nixon's wage and price freezing that temporarily delayed the inevitable. The hostage crisis was a difficult situation and the failed rescue attempt had it succeeded would have vastly changed his legacy.

As for the topic of the OP, I think it was a mistake by Carter. That being said, both Gulf Wars were mistakes.

 

[Farm Boy]

Kuwait is an illegitimate state?

 

[JollyRoger]

It is a legitimate state. So are a lot of countries that we don't do the whole shock and awe on CNN for.

 

[Klaus Hergersheimer]

The hostage crisis was a difficult situation and the failed rescue attempt had it succeeded would have vastly changed his legacy.

I read a bizarre take which said the failure of Eagle Claw was a blessing in disguise because, had US spec ops actually made it into Tehran, they most likely would've been killed trying fight their way out anyway.
I don't know how I feel about that, but it makes you think, that that whole thing probably wasn't really Jimmy Carter's fault, as it was a heck of a lot more complex than Israel's Entebbe Raid.

 

[Farm Boy]

It is a legitimate state. So are a lot of countries that we don't do the whole shock and awe on CNN for.

I guess it would have been a fine addition to Iraq. Counterbalance Iran, all that jazz.

 

[r16]

there were complete preparations in Tahran . Charging Charlie Beckwith , the special forces unit commander overreacted to anything , blew up oil tanker trucks , made all possible sorts of noise , actually abandoned 4 or 5 people on the ground , just like the preparations in Tahran . This is the sort of the "miracles" that embolden Islamists . A failure , a clear behind the doors agreement suddenly becomes a victory . The enemy can't act ! Desert One as a debacle fueled all that 8 years of war .

entebbe in contrast is super easy when the dictator of the country is still in your payroll .

 

[amadeus]

The economy under Carter was negatively impacted by Nixon's wage and price freezing that temporarily delayed the inevitable.

I’m pretty sure Ford put an end to that with the WIN buttons!

 

[Hyperborean]

Jimmy Carter was the only Christian president the United States ever had.

Which is funny, because his successor was the exact opposite of that.

(And by Christian, I mean someone who paid attention to what Christ said, and lived accordingly.)

 

[Samson]

I know little about Jimmy Carter that is not in this thread, but as I see it:

• In 1990 Jimmy Carter believed that the right thing to do was to oppose the US use military force against Iraq
• Jimmy Carter was a Christian
• Therefore Jimmy Carter believed that Jesus would oppose the US use military force against Iraq

What I mean is I think his commitments to something far greater exceeded what should have been his first loyalties.

You are saying that his loyalties to the current administrations foreign policy should be the higher loyalty?

 

[EnglishEdward]

My understanding was Jimmy Carter thought it better to let the Arab league try to sort out the problem first.

That is not quite the same as being against the use of US military force if that approach failed.

 

[Klaus Hergersheimer]

iirc Western civilians were captured in Kuwait and Saddam paraded them around on TV for a little bit, so if he thought the invasion of was some "Arab problem", well ok then best of luck...
but to summarize:

You are saying that his loyalties to the current administrations foreign policy should be the higher loyalty?

To me it creates an air of confusion as to which US leader (former or current) foreign countries should be listening to.
If Carter was so confident he was right maybe he should have taken his case to the US public on TV or wherever.
(But given his religious ideals, as mentioned [fine for him but not for, say, George Bush Jr {?}], I presume that was not good enough for him.)

 

[Zardnaar]

Booting Iraq out of Kuwait was moraly fine. Iraq 2003 not so much.

 

[Voidwalkin]

If Carter was so confident he was right maybe he should have taken his case to the US public on TV or wherever.
(But given his religious ideals, as mentioned [fine for him but not for, say, George Bush Jr {?}], I presume that was not good enough for him.)

TBF, if not for Iraq, it's quite possible GWB would be remembered for his faith.

It's difficult to know exactly what GWB saw in Iraq. He may or may not have known that the WMD claims were mostly a result of bureaucratic muscling propping up some very shaky intelligence. I sorta imagine he didn't, odd as that may sound.

Seems to me like he really was naive enough to both buy Cheney's puppets Intel, and that the American conception of freedom was universal, and simply denied to the people of Iraq by political obstacles.

His presidency is defined by that combo of unique American naivete and idk... chauvinism?

 

[Zardnaar]

Jimmy was the last Christian president. At least one who read the Bible and practiced Jesus teachings.