AlCosta15 said:
America
Arabs
Aztecs
China
Egypt
England
France
Germany
Greece
Inca
India
Japan
Mali
Mongolia
Persia
Rome
Russia
Spain
That would be all 18 standard Civs. This is addressed to EVERYONE who has been saying that ____ civ overlaps or messes up _____ civ somehow, and thus should be taken off the list of 65.
America, pre-18th century, was controlled by England. Oh no! America should be taken out of the game!
The Arabs probably refers to the original Islamic Empire, considering that the capital is Mecca. Oops! That area was originally controlled by Persia (at least going by that list of 18). Therefore Islam should be taken out.
Egypt. They are considered the first true civilization. They should probably be left in. Then again, the Ottoman Empire (which was one of three fraction empires created when the origional Islamic Empire fell) controlled Egypt at one time. Should Egypt be counted? Oh noes!
Aztecs. They were taken over by Spain and wiped out. They should be taken out.
China. They're been around longer than anyone in that 18 except Egypt, I believe. They're still around today. They should probably be left up. Then again, Kublai Khan actually ruled over China. So China should be out too!
England. Half of England was origionally controlled by the Roman Empire, and before them by Saxon and Anglo tribes. England should be taken out!
France. Long before the real nation of France exhisted, there was the Roman territory known as Gaul. France should be taken out.
Germany. While they were never under the thumb of any of those 18 civs, Germany origionally was a loose confederation of principalities which made up part of the Holy Roman Empire. Germany should be taken out!
Greece. The Greek city states were never a unified nation. That alone should get them excluded. They were also taken over by the Mongols. Greece should be taken out.
Inca. The Inca fell to a Spanish force under Pizarro in 1533 and were completely destroyed, later becoming modern Peru after being part of the Spanish empire. The Inca should be taken out.
India. They've been around for a hella long time. Then again, the British took over. So, at one point, India was a British territory. India should be taken out. After all, we want to be completely 100% historically accurate here.
Japan. They, too, have been around for a while. They've also managed to maintain some form of independance even in the colonial era. So Japan stays.
Mali. Taken over by the Islamic Empire (Arabs) and the Ottoman Empire. They should be taken out.
Mongolia. Included pretty much all of Asia plus Russia. Then again, they fell and were replaced by multiple nations including China and Russia. So they should be taken out in the interests of historical accuracy.
Persia. They didn't really last too long in the grand scheme of things. They were part of the Islamic Empire (Arabs), and later briefly came back in the form of Safavid Persia. However, they no longer exhist today and they did get wiped out by one of the 18 standard civs. So they should be taken out.
Rome. Fell. Need more be said? If yes, Rome included Britain, France, and had major influence in Germany. They should be taken out. It should also be noted that the main Ottoman city of Istanbul actually used to be the city of Constantinople, which was the capital of Byzantium. However, Byzantium was part of the Roman empire. All things considered, Rome should be taken out too.
Russia. Russia was part of the Mongolian Empire. It also did not exhist as a civilization before roughly 1160 C.E. Therefore, Russia should be taken out.
Spain. Prior to Ferdinand and Isabella, the Most Catholic Monarchs as they were called, Spain was under the rule of the Islamic Empire (Arabs). They should be taken out.
Gee. Maybe we should just call it CIVILIZATION 5 - JAPAN! If you want to, you can make a case that no civilization (even Japan - I don't know Japanese history that well) on the face of the planet that has ever exhisted should be in the game. Civ isn't about history. Oh my gosh! The Holy Roman Empire doesn't exist today and included Germany! We all gunna die! If the Civilization games were about historical accuracy, you wouldn't have the United States fighting ancient Greece! You wouldn't have Peter the Great ruling Russia for over 6000 years! Heck - you wouldn't even HAVE Russia until the 12th century! I hope I've made my point with that little list.
(By the way, I did 0 research to look that stuff up. That's all from what I remember and know from history - I'm studying to be a historian so I remember enough to get by. Please don't reply with something like, "ZOMG j00 so wrong wit yo history!" because I simply don't care. If you want me to write a historically accurate essay down to every last detail, then I'll crack open a textbook. I wasn't trying to be 100% correct - just enough to make my point.)
Now for the changes you've made thus far.
First Change:Turks replaced with Austrians
I personally think it's fine to have a Turkish civ. I mean, the Ottomans were known as the Ottoman
Turks. You cannot tell me that everyone from the Middle East is Turkish. Therefore, the argument against a Turkish civ falls apart. I think that a Turkish civ works quite well.
Second Change:Took out Soviet Union(will replace one leader with Soviet)
Good change. USSR = Russia.
Third Change:Quebec gone, Macedonia gone, Gauls gone, Abyssinia gone,Mexico In, Turks back In.
Quebec: Good.
Macedonia: That would be a good civ. Macedonia was not part of Ancient Greece. In fact, Alexander and his father, Philip, cannot be considered Greek - it's a very important fact that Alexander (a Macedonian) took over Greece, Egypt, and much of Persia.
Gauls: Yeah - Gauls = France. You could make a case that the Gauls were their own civ, but that's just a bit redundant.
Mexico: Good. I lived in Mexico for 3 years. I'd love to have a Mexican civ.
Turks: Excellent.
Fourth Change:Holy Roman Empire gone, Assyria gone, Bulgaria In
Holy Roman Empire: The HRE would make an excellent Civ. It had its own rulers, who couldn't be considered German by any stretch, and played an important role in history. The Sack of Rome (not the first one, but during the Reformation) was done by HRE forces under Charles V. Charlemagne was the first HRE emperor.
Fifth Change:Sweden In, Armenia/Scythia(Need to Decide) In, Celts In, Madagascar gone, Maori In, Touaregs replace generic Berbers,Navajo In, Switzerland Gone, Kazhaks In, Tupis Gone.
Sweden: Good. They date back to Reformation times, so I personally think they're important enough to be a civ. They've been around longer than the USA.
Navajo: You might want to do yourself a favor and make an American Indian civ and then have Navajo/Iriquois rulers.
Maori: Good choice taking them out - from what I can remember, they were a nomadic peoples who founded many African nations. Correct me if I'm wrong here - African history (beyond Egypt) is not my strength.
Switz: Eh. Good one to take out I guess, but you can go either way on this one. Swiss would be good to set toward industrious and something else economic. And they could even have a militia special unit; the Swiss army, from what I know, consist mostly of normal citizens armed with their AKs.
Sixth Change:Khmer In, Huns Gone, Tibet In, Ukirane gone, South Africa combined with Zululand,Songhai In, Babylon combined with Sumeria
But Babylon and Sumeria were different. In fact, Babylon took over Sumeria. If you wanted to combine them, it'd be best to make a Fertile Crescent civ. Then again, we're not exactly going for accuracy, are we? You'd run out of city names pretty quick too.
Seventh Change:Byzantines In, Micronesians Gone
Excellent news of the Byzantines. They're important.
That's all I have to say. I know this is my first post here, and that I'm a new member, but I've lurked for quite some time and I'm a big fan of Civ. Sorry if I seemed a bit harsh making my first point, but I thought it was a point which had to be made.
EDIT: Wow. I just realized that I posted just a wee bit too late in the topic for this point. That'll teach me to stop reading on page 2. Sorry for the redundant post.
) in turn becoming one of our national heros
This is also a good consideration, since the famous Bali and the ancient Borobudur is part of the kingdom until the arrival of the Dutch.
