The AI cheats! (Possible spoiler alert)

[JujuLautre]

Everything that a human does, a computer can be taught how to duplicate convincingly. When it comes right down to it, we are machines that can feel. Perhaps the computer may never really feel anything, but it can learn to mimic our behavior and even surpass our processing ability.

Eeeeer, did you discover a revolutionary design/implementation/hardware/software/new technology/all that and more, that could really allow computers to do what you state?

Oh, sure, you can tell a computer or a machine to have specific reactions to specific situations, but her ability to generalize will be quite limited

All that said, I really think you under-estimate the difficulty of programing an artificial intelligence

 

[Handel]

Don't be silly. If anything on Prince and below the human actually gets a bonus vs the AI's.

No, check the XML files. Even on noble the AI has advantages against the human.
Besides there are some AI bonuses which are hardcoded and like the barbarians attacking human player and neglecting the AI.
An example for the barbs:
I started a game on monarch (Warlords) with raging barbs. Suceeded to build the Great wall untill there were only warriors and archers before the barb axemen appeared. And what happened? 3 AI civs were destroyed by the barbarians! Because of the "lack" human player the barbs went vs the AI.

 

[JujuLautre]

If I'm correct, noble is still the fairest level for lot's of bonuses. At least before BTS, the AI gets bonuses on each level to upgrade, maintenance and other things. However, considering freeby techs, the human get some below noble, whereas the AI gets some above level. And for the tech, AI gets penalties on tech prices below noble, gets discounts above noble, and AI and human tech at the same pace at noble.

 

[popejubal]

Everything that a human does, a computer can be taught how to duplicate convincingly.

And there's the rub. A computer can be taught how to duplicate "convincingly". The Turing test isn't a look at whether the computer is thinking. It looks at whether the computer can fool someone into believing that the computer is thinking.

Similarly, no heuristic AI can duplicate a human's ability to learn simply because learning is outside of the realm of a heuristic AI. If you want an AI that learns, then be prepared to buy a darned powerful computer and let Civ run 24-7 because it's going to take a lot of games to get the computer AI to the point where it will be able to play worth a darn. A game of Civ takes a long, long time. A game of chess takes almost no time for a computer in comparison, so a learning AI can play hundreds of thousands of games of chess and actually learn something.

Think about how long it would take you to learn to play Civ IV well without the help and advice of the people here at Civ Fanatics. People learn through trial and error and through the teachings of the people around them. It's an incredibly complex process and it's one that we're only just beginning to understand as a species.

I don't know how long it will be before we have computers that can "learn" more than very basic skills, but even Deep Blue had to be specifically programmed with Gary Kasparov's weaknesses to be able to beat him


Long story short (okay, too late, I know!), you expect too much from an AI.

 

[popejubal]

Playing against AI is mastabat**n anyway.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

[Datian]

Giving bonuses isn't cheating in itself. In many games and sports, handicaps are meant to allow a challenge between players of different levels - that's the same situation here.

Cheating is when the AI does things it's not supposed to do according to game rules, like popping units out of nowhere, which happened in the previous versions of civilization.

Handicaps and bonuses are here because, whatever the level of the game, the AI is the same, it tries its best to win. They are here to simulate a progress parallel to yours, from newbie to expert.

There are things that the civ AI - and, for what I know, any AI - just can't do. They can't simulate all the capacities that the human brain shows, like intuition (relevant decisions on incomplete datas), sorting data according to its relevance (which is tied to the ability to forget), improvising (taking a decision out of a set pattern) learning (creating new patterns). The only capacities it can duplicate are computing and memorizing, things that can be reduced to numbers.
In other words, you can predict the AI's behaviour, because it's static, you can even duplicate it. But the AI can't predict yours, because it's dynamic, and supported by capacities the AI can't understand.

Remember also that there is another thing you can do, but the AI can't : deciding whether you can play the game, or not. You can reload, you can quit, you can regenerate the map.

Maybe one day, computers will be able to do all the things I described higher. It means they will be able to learn, improve, and adapt their behaviour to yours : I don't know if the game will still be fun.

 

[Yeekim]

Yeah. The civ AI could always be better. But never comparable to experienced human. If you do not want an AI to cheat, play chess. It is pretty fun too ( Especially if you play it with friends, not a PC

 

[GenghisPanda]

Don't be silly. If anything on Prince and below the human actually gets a bonus vs the AI's.

I was playing a civ 18 civs world map as qin once, and started with the warrior. Genghis Khan was two tiles ahead of me (litterly) and so I rushed him figuring he had no warrior since he had a scout. Alt-click - bring warrior in .. what's this? ANOTHER warrior. So he had a warrior, scout, and a city, with me only having a warrior and a city. That was on cheiftan.

 

[MrCynical]

I was playing a civ 18 civs world map as qin once, and started with the warrior. Genghis Khan was two tiles ahead of me (litterly) and so I rushed him figuring he had no warrior since he had a scout. Alt-click - bring warrior in .. what's this? ANOTHER warrior. So he had a warrior, scout, and a city, with me only having a warrior and a city. That was on cheiftan.

The AI gets very few bonuses on chieftain, and the few it does get are nothing compared to the huge production and research benefits the human gets at that level. Extra units don't show up until either at least Prince.

The obvious explanation there is a goody hut. Popping a scout or a warrior is quite common at that level.

 

[Handel]

Aome of you juts repeat as parrots what the Firaxis said about at noble the AI having no bonuses.
As I already said don't - don't be parrots - check yourselves.
The AI has bonuses on everything even on settler level.

 

[Percy]

Aome of you juts repeat as parrots what the Firaxis said about at noble the AI having no bonuses.
As I already said don't - don't be parrots - check yourselves.
The AI has bonuses on everything even on settler level.

Care to prove it, instead of just saying it ? Because, between a statement from the coders of the game and the statement from someone on a message board, i'd tend to believe the coders'.

 

[r_rolo1]

Percy, just look at the CIV4HandicapInfo.xml file ( should be in ...\Assets\XML\GameInfo ). AI get bonuses in all levels...
And I can't recall readind or hearing any of the game coders stating that Noble AI had no bonuses...

 

[Percy]

Percy, just look at the CIV4HandicapInfo.xml file ( should be in ...\Assets\XML\GameInfo ). AI get bonuses in all levels...
And I can't recall readind or hearing any of the game coders stating that Noble AI had no bonuses...

You're right. More accurately, the question is: are the bonuses to the AI better than the ones to the human, before Noble/Monarch ?

 

[MrCynical]

You're right. More accurately, the question is: are the bonuses to the AI better than the ones to the human, before Noble/Monarch ?

The AI receives a few minor bonuses at all levels including noble (stuff like unit upgrades, unit supply costs, nothing too important). The advantage of these is fairly minimal. Below Noble the human player gets huge production and research bonuses, which vastly outweigh these. Above Noble, the AI receives the production and research bonuses to make it more challenging.

 

[Percy]

So it's fair to say that the AI does get "bonuses" but doesn't get an "advantage" compared to the human player, at Noble and below. Thank you MrCynical.

 

[AlessioCerci]

Erm to my knowledge the only game in the world in which a computer can beat a human is chess, so you cant possibly expect a game bought for ~£30 to have the AI necessary to beat a human without bonuses. Sure i'd like the AI to be better but then i'd like most things to be better than they actually are.

 

[JujuLautre]

Erm to my knowledge the only game in the world in which a computer can beat a human is chess

oh, there are much more: checkers, scrabble, awari, almost poker, othello etc...

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

oh, there are much more: checkers

Not sure this one counts anymore, now that it has been solved. Why not include tic-tac-toe and connect four?

 

[JujuLautre]

Same as awari in this case if I'm correct. But still, the point was not here

 

[Handel]

The AI receives a few minor bonuses at all levels including noble (stuff like unit upgrades, unit supply costs, nothing too important). The advantage of these is fairly minimal. Below Noble the human player gets huge production and research bonuses, which vastly outweigh these. Above Noble, the AI receives the production and research bonuses to make it more challenging.

Unlike you those of us which play the game (not only write in the forums) know the economic bonuses are not "nothing too important". Quite the opposite - it is the economics which wins the game. If you cannot allow to pay for the research it doens't matter you need less research. Because even at the lowest level - settler - the AI pays only 45% form what human pays for support and upgrade. On the other side the human on settler have 60% bonus on research and production. Or on the lowest level - settler the human has only 5% advantage. And those measly 5% have to counter the other advantages the AI has - such as 40% against barbarians etc. And the human advantage is reduced on the next level but the AI bonus is increased so on the next level - which means on the second lowest level the AI has already 5% advatages in all, retaining all it's other advantages which exist from the lowest levels.
And on noble the human and the AI have equal research and manufacture rates, but pays ONLY 30% for support and upgrade. No matter what the Firaxis claims.
And yes, it does matter. And yes, it is extremely important. No matter whatsome people claims.
PS. About the barbarians - some ppl will say it is nothing important. But we, which play the game, know it is of much importance if the barbarians attack all the players, or if the neglect the AI cities and units and hunt the human units and cities.
Edit: And paying only 30% for support and upgrade means if you need 100 golds per turn for support the AI needs only 30 golds. And 30% for upgrade means the AI can upgrade a whole stack of units with the measly 200 golds!