No need to get personal. Especially when you're talking to a well-known player...
The AI cheats! (Possible spoiler alert)
- Thread starter Askthepizzaguy
- Start date
No need to get personal. Especially when you're talking to a well-known player...
MrCynical
Deity
Handel said:
Handel, I have little patience for insults. I post here in addition to, not instead of, playing the game, and I understand the economics perfectly well. Firstly the numbers you are quoting are only applicable to Vanilla and Warlords, not BtS. Most of those bonuses have been removed, and those that remain have been drastically reduced. I'm not sure which version the OP, or the other posters in this thread have.
Secondly, if you understand the economics, then you are fully aware how trivial the bonuses (with the possible exception of unit upgrade costs) are. They are nothing compared to the bonuses a human gets to production and research below Noble, or the AI gets above it. Unit upkeep costs are quite minor. Unit supply costs are barely noticeable. Inflation is trivial pre-BtS, and AI bonuses were greatly reduced for BtS. Additional barbarian bonuses are hardly stunning. As someone that does play the game I know that they only make a serious difference in the actions of barbs when it is a direct choice between attacking an Ai unit on an adjacent tile, and an identical human one. In any case, except on Terra and one or two BtS map scripts, barbs are no more than a minor irritation in the early stages. These are minor tweaks. I'd trade the whole lot in a second for 5% on research and production.
slobberinbear
Ursine Skald
I've read a lot of your posts, Ask, and here's the pattern:
1. Identify basic gameplay issue
2. State your greatness
3. Complain that the game is somehow limiting your greatness
4. Justify/rationalize your actions used to overcome complaints and reestablish your greatness
and now the new, last step:
5. You don't understand me/appreciate my greatness, so goodbye
Is it any wonder that you get negative responses to your posts? Taken as a whole, your posts are essentially trolling.
If your point is "the AI advantages at Deity are hard to overcome," say so. If your point is (in another of your posts) "here is how I've defeated a continent's worth of foes," say so.
Leave the drama and inferiority complex behind and you'll enjoy posting here a lot more. Seriously.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
Actually, the human stops getting the bonus at Noble. That's from a moderator in a prior thread (circa may 2006?). I'm not sure when the AI starts getting the big bonuses, maybe that's after prince. But the human stops getting bonuses on Noble.
EDIT: This is from a post long ago before 2 patches. Is it true that humans still get barb bonus at noble? Damn... now i have to gear up for monarch. I just want an even field!
Percy, "well known player" in the forums means "a member with many posts". Many posts don't make you a good player.
As for the player which says "if you pay only 45% from the expences this is nothing really important"... well, I bet there are better players. Because 45% less expences means you can put 55% more into research or spam 55% more cities or support 55% more units. And this is on the lowest "settler" diffuculty. On the other hand the human player on settler difficulty has 60% bonus on research, which means he has only 5% advantage.
As for the noble - Firaxis claims the human and the AI are equal. And yes, they are equal as the cost of the researh and production, but the expenses of the AI are only 30%. Which means the AI can put 70% more gold in the research or build 70% more cities or support 70% larger army. And this is called "equal"...
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
... No offence, but You can't possibly expect an AI to be half as smart in the long time run as a human player. Hell, you don't even have to look in the manual to realize the difficulties is about bonuses. Start a game on settler. found a village. mouse over the health status of your city: "+X: Difficulty level"
Now start a game on noble and mouse over your health - realize there is no such bonus now. If you open worldbuilder you will find the AI has it nearly the same way, and yes, on the hardest setting (dont know in what version of the game, not even if its civ 4 or 3 or whatever), the AI starts with 32 units.
Now start a game on noble and mouse over your health - realize there is no such bonus now. If you open worldbuilder you will find the AI has it nearly the same way, and yes, on the hardest setting (dont know in what version of the game, not even if its civ 4 or 3 or whatever), the AI starts with 32 units.
Askthepizzaguy
Know the Dark Side
Spoiler :
"Slobberinbear"
Your accusation is completely unfounded.
I've reviewed all 24 of my posts thus far. I started a few threads, and never was accused of trolling. In fact, you yourself participated in my threads and haven't accused me of trolling until now.
As for "stating my greatness", are you blind? In each of my previous 3 threads I began by ASKING FOR HELP. Check it again if you like. I then went on to praise much of the advice given and thank people for contributing.
Is that the behavior of an arrogant person?
I've also contributed to exactly one thread besides my own thus far (I havent been here long), and my only comment was supportive of someone else's strategy. I even made it clear that it wasn't my own strategy, and gave him credit.
Your entire point is a fantasy that exists only in your mind. Yet you still make the ridiculous criticism. Is it any wonder I won't abide by such insulting behavior?
Most of my posts on this forum have been either asking questions, agreeing with many of the answers given, or praising other members with comments like "good post" or "good tip". I believe I made one arrogant statement on the "help with early expansion" thread, and it was intended to be ironic, considering most of my other posts have been in the form of asking for help or appreciating the wisdom and input of other members. This is the instance where I referred to myself jokingly as the Medieval II Total war "blitz god incarnate". Had you read all my posts, you would have realized the irony of making such an obviously facetious statement. And by the way, even though I was being ironic, I actually do have that reputation in the M2TW circles. But I was merely contrasting that with the humility I had been demonstrating with repeated requests for help and gracious compliments and thanks to all who chose to contribute.
I also refer to myself as a good, experienced player of this game, but I never refer to myself as an expert, and most of my threads have been about asking for advice. How does all of the above factor into your groundless accusation about being an arrogant troll with a superiority complex, other than entirely refute it?
It's not as though my posts are hidden, they are publicly available for all to see.
Why should I abide by cutting remarks and glib put-downs from people whose accusations aren't even based in reality? Further, why should I bother to defend myself publicly when others won't even leave their cutting remarks posted for all to see? If it were only one troll (who could actually be rightly accused of trolling, imagine that) I could see why you would not understand my frustration, but several people have posted on this thread, yourself included, that have contributed nothing at all positive.
For someone accusing others of trolling, you have a weak attack and no defense against your own accusations.
Since I had decided to leave the forum, many people have posted some good comments on this thread (for a change) and it gives me hope. But if posters such as slobberinbear and sickcycle remain here, I don't see how I can contribute without having insults slammed in my face. I believe I've made my point, but the other forum members can decide.
I submit to the judgment of the other forum members. If you believe my 3 other threads and my 1 other post were examples of trolling, feel free to explain why. Or, if you feel slobberinbear is nothing but a wounded animal lashing out at the world through the anonymity of the internet, feel free to make that observation as well. Or if you feel like neither of us have made valid contributions, feel free to say so.
As for myself, I would really rather not sit here and be insulted for no reason. I'm sure we are all aware at how uncivil the internet can be, and how people seem to be vicious and insulting to strangers because it gives them some sort of ego trip. I had thought that a moderated forum would be a more civil environment, and I've read other threads and it would seem to be so. But much of the behavior on this thread, even though some of it has already been deleted, has been shameful. And since sickcycle is too cowardly to leave his comments posted publicly, and slobberinbear has apparently no idea what he is talking about, and several others have made unneccessarily cutting remarks, I'm done. Or at least I'd like to be, but I couldn't just let those groundless remarks stand. I'm certain there would be some people on here that have found my contributions to be acceptible or enjoyable. Sorry you don't feel the same way, but honestly if all you have for me are insults, keep them to yourself or send them to me privately. Don't pollute my threads.
And if you do insult me publicly, don't be a coward and delete them before I have a chance to respond. And if you have an insult, make sure it is based on something I've done to make me deserving of it. Is that really so much to ask? And don't call me melodramatic for not laying down and taking such nonsense like an abused spouse. That's not a fair or objective evaluation.
I leave it up to the other forum members whether they would like me to stay, or whether they agree with your accusation that I am a troll. Seems to me to be the fair resolution.
EDIT:
PS- Some of the other contributors on this thread (Percy and MrCynical) have complained about being insulted as well. So it's not as though I am the only one.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
way too much to read, AskThePizzaGuy. I'm not gonna bother. What I can say is that people seem to take posts too personally (i'm not referring to you per-say, just in general). I used to as well. I'm sure if you look into my past posts you'll see a great deal of BS and attacking. You have to try and let these trollers pass over you or you can take what they say into effect and re-word your posts. Either way, it's not worth getting upset about.
Anyway, I have no place posting anything about the on-topic thread subject as I still play noble
Anyway, I have no place posting anything about the on-topic thread subject as I still play noble
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
I think everyone is taking all this too seriously, stop getting insulted and stop personal attacks.
In response to the thread starter, I think has has posted some threads looking for assistance but has a style that can come across are arrogant (I am not saying he is). I myself have not been posting that long but lurked for quite a bit (see the difference in our join dates) so I already had an understanding of the style of posts.
Piazzaguy, I will say slobberingbear is right in one point, you did say you were leaving and not posting again. Not to cool, either argue your case or don't post. Saying your not going to post again sort of gets people annoyed.
I will say All consistent posters are very curtious and helpful. Most understand the game better than me but still help if I need it or point out my errors in posting which are fairly numerous if noones noticed.
So everyone should just chill for a bit and let the thread lie.
In response to the thread starter, I think has has posted some threads looking for assistance but has a style that can come across are arrogant (I am not saying he is). I myself have not been posting that long but lurked for quite a bit (see the difference in our join dates) so I already had an understanding of the style of posts.
Piazzaguy, I will say slobberingbear is right in one point, you did say you were leaving and not posting again. Not to cool, either argue your case or don't post. Saying your not going to post again sort of gets people annoyed.
I will say All consistent posters are very curtious and helpful. Most understand the game better than me but still help if I need it or point out my errors in posting which are fairly numerous if noones noticed.
So everyone should just chill for a bit and let the thread lie.
slobberinbear
Ursine Skald
Asking others whether you think you should stay or not is yet another act of drama, of self-inflation. Comparing yourself to an abused spouse? Please. This too is an instance of exaggerated self-importance. Stay, or don't. None of our contributions to this forum are so important that our presence or absence is earth-shattering. Asking the forum for a straw vote of confidence on yourself is ridiculous.
Believe it or not, I was trying to help you by pointing out your pattern of posting and showing you why you're getting negative reaction. Silly me. I must have been under the illusion that you wanted your posts to be read and taken seriously. It's clear that, instead, you are primarily looking for a forum in which to do your self-absorbed thing -- to which I say, go for it.
Just don't expect any different reaction.
Believe it or not, I was trying to help you by pointing out your pattern of posting and showing you why you're getting negative reaction. Silly me. I must have been under the illusion that you wanted your posts to be read and taken seriously. It's clear that, instead, you are primarily looking for a forum in which to do your self-absorbed thing -- to which I say, go for it.
Just don't expect any different reaction.
Askthepizzaguy
Know the Dark Side
You'll forgive me if I don't thank you for your "help".
Accusing someone of being an arrogant troll is in and of itself arrogant, and an example of trolling.
So even if you were right, this makes you no better than I.
For someone who complains about being dramatic and over-inflating or exaggerating, I have to once again point the finger right back at you. You are guilty of all you accuse others of.
Accusing someone of being an arrogant troll is in and of itself arrogant, and an example of trolling.
So even if you were right, this makes you no better than I.
For someone who complains about being dramatic and over-inflating or exaggerating, I have to once again point the finger right back at you. You are guilty of all you accuse others of.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
And of course noone has ever criticized my horrible spelling except my wife but that's another story.
Computers often cheat at other games as well. For example at chess, Computer's use databases of human games, "opening books" which show how to play the beginning of the game which are mainly taken from human books.
I suspect given these advantages most chess grandmasters would kill the computers alive. Get used to computers cheating!
I suspect given these advantages most chess grandmasters would kill the computers alive. Get used to computers cheating!
Askthepizzaguy
Know the Dark Side
@madscientist
People are criticizing your spelling?
It's generally my policy that if someone misspells something, and that's your only criticism of them, it's a bad one.
Ironic especially when someone misspells their comment about you misspelling something, which happens quite often.
Unless the post that is being criticized contains something other than spelling errors, it's considered bad form and nit-picking to complain about it.
When someone starts flaming or trolling, however, spelling becomes yet another criticism and is then fair game. It just adds icing on the cake, really. If someone is critical of others, but is showing obvious deficiencies, it makes all of them fair targets.
Edit: @Blitzkreig
Yeah, I wouldn't be sad to see it go at this point. I really just wanted to discuss the AI handicaps.
I know it may be common knowledge on this forum, but I must have overlooked that part in the playing manual, I don't think it explained the handicap as I described. It may have said something about the Ai being stronger at higher levels but I assumed it had something to do with better algorithms.
Also, what is common knowledge on the forum is news to newcomers.
People are criticizing your spelling?
It's generally my policy that if someone misspells something, and that's your only criticism of them, it's a bad one.
Ironic especially when someone misspells their comment about you misspelling something, which happens quite often.
Unless the post that is being criticized contains something other than spelling errors, it's considered bad form and nit-picking to complain about it.
When someone starts flaming or trolling, however, spelling becomes yet another criticism and is then fair game. It just adds icing on the cake, really. If someone is critical of others, but is showing obvious deficiencies, it makes all of them fair targets.
Edit: @Blitzkreig
Yeah, I wouldn't be sad to see it go at this point. I really just wanted to discuss the AI handicaps.
I know it may be common knowledge on this forum, but I must have overlooked that part in the playing manual, I don't think it explained the handicap as I described. It may have said something about the Ai being stronger at higher levels but I assumed it had something to do with better algorithms.
Also, what is common knowledge on the forum is news to newcomers.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
alright, a moderator is definitely going to shut this post down. not that much is getting done on it. let's try to make friends! 
MrCynical
Deity
Handel said:
Handel, you should be aware that the economics are not that simple. Claims that you can support 70% more units or build 70% more cities only hold if ALL your income is going on maintenance costs, which is a recipe for disaster. In most games maintenance on cities shouldn't average out at more than 10-20% of total income, and hence the saving by applying a percentage modifier to that is limited. Claiming that it would allow you to put 70% gold in research is similarly only true if your research slider is spending the whole game at zero, in which case you've lost anyway. These modifiers are being applied to a small percentage of your civ's income.
The production and research bonuses on the other hand are applied to base numbers which are much larger percentages of your civ's whole output. Ideally you wanted to be researching 80% plus, so a 10% modifier there is going to be worth more than appling a 70% modifier to a gold amount which only makes up maybe 10% of your civ's expenses, such as unit upkeep.
The 55% modifier to costs the AI gets isn't worth remotely near 55% on research, as I've just explained. It's worth much nearer 5%. The human player advantage at Settler is colossal - it wouldn't be if you were a mere 5% ahead.
I'm assuming for this you only have Vanilla or Warlords. Most of these bonuses are not present, or are in very reduced form in BtS.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
Sigh!!!!
It was a joke at my expense to try and lighten the thread up. No one here has ever said anything about my spelling which I know is bad at times.
I am correct though in saying my wife ridicules my spelling. But then again she doesn't complain when I play BTS for several hours before I take the trash out, so I can live with it.
I think it would be bets if a Moderator shuts the thread down. This is my last post on this thread (and NO I am not upset).
Askthepizzaguy
Know the Dark Side
Spoiler :
Oh, Mad that wasn't directed at you, it was more of a general comment in response to the subject of spelling criticisms. I think it's among the weakest of criticisms someone can make, and is a poor stand-alone criticism.
Spoiler :
Don't worry about it, I can't play on Deity either. Not very well at least.
I really just went on deity to see what I was doing wrong (assuming the AI played fair and played better than me on deity, which I found out wasn't true, it just used better handicaps).
I usually play at Prince or Monarch. Seems to be a good balance. Bravo to the players who can triumph on Deity, I'm not there yet. This is one of the few games which actually poses a challenge on higher difficulty levels. My original post was simply commenting on my disappointment after seeing how it was done. I thought some clever game strategist had such intimate knowledge of the game that the AI was winning through superior gameplay. Entirely possible, but difficult to design.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
yeah, we can expect that kind of AI strategy and fore-thinking in future episodes of civ. I wouldn't count on it being implemented as well as we'd like in Civ5. Maybe by the time Civ6 (praying they keep makin' em) rolls around, the AI will be at a level in which they don't require bonuses to be competitive. Skynet, baby! A storm's coming.
