"The Bad Sequel": Sullla's Analysis of Civ5

You only have to evaluate each tile once, not per worker. Then you figure out which tiles are most important and which workers are closest, so should move there.
Not really difficult at all.



a bug should be fixed, it is not a reason to have a different approach. It also has minimal impact on the amount of effort needed for this evaluation.



agreed, they really aren't :D

Ideally your worker formula will include a factor based on how long it takes the worker to get to the tile and that will be different for every worker. Keep in mind what most of us do is have workers associated with the areas surrounding a particular city and try not to move workers all the way across our empire, but rather 1 turn or 1/2 a turn at a time.
 
It depends how badly you want to do it. If you're trying to do no worse than say spending 120% of the optimal amount of movement points all the time (5/4) then I think the problem is quite hard. If you don't care if you spend 150% of movement points I think you'll do fine.

I think the bigger issue is what happens if the tactical AI is guiding your units to end in positions with terrain bonuses, but the pathfinding AI screws up the timing to get there and as a result you leave units out in open terrain.

Also if you need pathfinding feedback to the tactical level of the AI, and choose to ignore unit order I think you'll do some pretty silly things at the tactical level as well.

I'd say the combat AI needs to be split to (at least) two parts. The first part just sends unit to the battlefront. It's probably quite straightforward greedy algorithm that uses pathfinding and moves each units individually, this part is possibly good enough already. When units come to enemy's range, a completely different system is needed. Units can't no longer move individually, instead we need to find a good combination of moves and actions of all units in that battleground. Some kind of random sampling and genetic algorithms may work there.
 
Sulla hits on most of the flaws in CiV; but his conclusion that 1 upt is the major factor is wrong. There are other factors, many small ones that just add up, like the barbarian galley that sinks a modern steel transport with its arrows, or unit that decides to travel all the way around the world to get to a tile two tiles away that is temporally blocked, or my personal favorite...You have large number units near my territory, when their Civ is half a world away.

The examples you name as "small factors" are simply bugs. I'm sure that the devs did not intend for ancient galleys to sink battleships, or for units to take the longest possible route to their destination. Sulla is analyzing 1upt, a part of the design that was fully intended, and in his opinion dragged the rest of the game down. It is these questionable core design decisions that have so many people upset, not the bugs.

Granted, 1 upt is flawed, particularly later in the game when you can afford many units; but given the choice of that, over the "stack of doom', I'll take the 1 upt. This is my personal preference, one shaped by the types of games I prefer to play.
My favorite game of all time is Panzer General 2, followed closely by SMACX, Civ 2, Civ 4 BTS, then AOE ROR. When CiV was announced, I was thrilled that some of my favorite games features where being added all in one game! I pre-ordered the collectors addition! I don't normally layout $100 bucks on any game, particularly so if I've not demoed it; but this is a Civ game, how bad could it be? We'll the bad is, very bad, and the good is just "Ok" or "Potentially Good" (with needed patches).

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...

I have posed the same argument about Civ IV mechanics. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater on religion, espionage, stacking, civics and local happiness when these mechanics, though they are flawed, can be fixed? More importantly, I'll ask a better question of you. What reason do we have for sticking with 1upt? Why *shouldn't* we just get rid of it and go back to stacks? The reality is that 1upt is a new idea in Civ-- an unproven, untried mechanism in this game series, that just so happens to be part of the most divisive game in Civilization history. Civilization characteristically had stacking up till now, and as soon as they radically change the battle mechanics, people are turning tail. Coincidence? If Sulla's right, then the switch to 1upt led to a host of problems that have people reaching levels of negativity unheard of in the rest of the series. Even if he's wrong, Is 1upt so much better than stacking that it's even worth saving given V's reception? Why not go back to what worked before instead of trying to fit a square peg into the circle hole?


I know a lot of Civ players like the 'Stack of Doom', I never hated it...just thought it was too unrealistic. I realize that Civ is not historically accurate, but it is based on real history, real civilizations, with their, for the most part, unique civilization traits. Thinking of history got me thinking one previous games I loved, and what made them work.

I don't understand how you see 1upt as more realistic than stacking. I agree that Civ has never been the most realistic, but what you are arguing is that it is realistic to only be able to fit one unit in an space the the size of a major metropolitan area or larger. Is that what you really believe? Texas only has enough space for a solitary battalion of Marines or two? Or is it because the larger stack usually won in Civ IV? How does that *not* make sense? If anything Civ V is a further departure from reality.

Or is it because with stacking you can't draw up your own battle lines? At the scope of Civilization, the important thing is getting your armies to the appropriate area and keeping them well supplied. Outmaneuvering enemies is done on a much, much smaller scale on a tactical battlefield. There is a difference between strategy and tactics (see Total War.) If you want tactics, there are far better games for that. Trying to have our cake and eat it too has done both disciplines a disservice and probably made Civ V the worse for it. "Those who would give up strategic play to have tactical play will deserve neither and lose both." ;)

Don't reinvent the wheel, "borrow" the design!

PG2, addressed the 1 upt with a 100 unit limit, period, simple but effective. Modders built units like TD's (tank destroyers, self propelled anti tank guns) with attached infantry, slower than normal TD's, but could fight in cities and tackle entrenched units more effectively than normal TD's. This is also historically correct, armored units often moved with foot infantry intermixed.

So Civ could allow some unit types to stack. Stacking should have some benefits and drawbacks. A drawback would be a Knight on the same tile as a Swordsman, the Knight loses some power and movement as it cannot maneuver well when intermixed. Maybe mobility units like Knights and Tanks should not be able to stack with same unit types.

3 units per tile seems reasonable to me, and could be graphically represented without hovering over a tile to see what is in it.

Cities could also be allowed to garrison 1 to 10 units based on their size.
ICS - small civs vs large civs- unit promotions and support.

Small civs could be allowed better promotions to buy, to compete with massive armies of large civs.

PG2 also had a 'Deployment Feature', you could pre-purchase units and deploy them later if needed; Or later, if all your deployment tiles where occupied. The deployment concept would work great in Civ, think about it, you pre-purchase units, pay half the maintenance cost when "un-deployed", and deploy them when in need. Maybe you have to wait a few turns to 'Call up the Reserves", as well. There are many ways this could help avoid this: Carpet of doom

All good ideas, except that once you implement many of them, it would no longer be 1upt. What infuriates me is that the dev team shoehorned in a system that doesn't work properly, when average fans like you and I seem to be able to come up with several workable and realistic solutions for combat.

The handwriting is on the wall...

Sulla says he's seen game companies go down this road before, I've seen it too. Resting or just profiting on their laurels. It's time for Sid to step up and fix this game or go right to Civ 6. Civ is last great game of the Turn based genre, and the only one this "old boy" can use his wit on instead of my slower reaction times RTS games take.

Agreed. :) The only thing that I don't support is defending 1upt. As far as I can tell, there is very little redeeming about the feature as it is implemented in Civ V.
 
Ideally your worker formula will include a factor based on how long it takes the worker to get to the tile and that will be different for every worker. Keep in mind what most of us do is have workers associated with the areas surrounding a particular city and try not to move workers all the way across our empire, but rather 1 turn or 1/2 a turn at a time.

Agreed, I already said which workers are closest is factored into deciding which worker should do the tile improvement on a particular tile.

You still only have to evaluate every tile once (what is best to build there), not per worker.
 
I have said it multiple times, and I'll say it again, the only reason players use stacks of doom against the AI in Civ4 is because the AI sucks. Also, If you make all units in the tile lose health when a unit is destroyed like in SMACX, it makes stacks even less appealing.
 
Agreed, I already said which workers are closest is factored into deciding which worker should do the tile improvement on a particular tile.

You still only have to evaluate every tile once (what is best to build there), not per worker.

Ok sure, you could choose to evaluate what is best to build on a particular tile once, or very so often (it might change if say you're building a bank in a nearby city a tradepost might get reevaluated higher than a farm for instance), but you still need to evaluate which tile to improve for each worker.

To be honest on the scale its done on its probably easier to just calculate the heuristic scores at every opportunity rather than trying to track everything that could possibly change them. Particularly as the things that can change them will be relatively frequent occurences (many new buildings, some border changes, new cities, etc).
 
I have said it multiple times, and I'll say it again, the only reason players use stacks of doom against the AI in Civ4 is because the AI sucks. Also, If you make all units in the tile lose health when a unit is destroyed like in SMACX, it makes stacks even less appealing.

Large stacks happen in a lot of MP battles as well, the fact is if you make much smaller stacks then the opponent then you are going to be at a strategic disadvantage when they attack.
 
Umm, but don't artillery weapons compensate that?

Let's imagine a scenario: I'm attacked by a balanced stack of 18 units. I didn't have time to prepare, so I only have half of that : 9 units. But 3 of them are catapults. So I attack with those catapults first and severely cripple his stack. At the same time I place my units in 3 stacks of two to block his units (where are ZOC's when you need them!?). I then wait for reinforcements. Should he have attacked me, say with 6 stacks of three instead, I doubt I could have done anything to really stop that army...
 
Much of your post was either irrelevant to what I wrote or you seemed to misunderstand what I intended and went off on a different tangent or wrote something out of ignorance.

Dividing turns into phases makes the problem easier.

You misunderstood, in PG3, units had 2-3 stages of full move and they had the option to fire during those stages, though firing reduced their move or might cancel the option to move a 2nd or 3rd time, depending how many times they fired and how many times they could fire. Units in the PG series had a very wide range of stats regarding move and attack.

Fixing the maximum number of units on the map by a starting number of units makes it easier.

In the SSI games, there was no fixed starting number of units. They were set up so units could be added as reinforcements, both for AI and player. There a max number of units each side could have in total, not how many this total could be starting units.


Not having units that have 5 moves in a single step makes it easier.

In PG3 there were many units capable of 5 hex move per move stage and they could have 3 stages of movement.

Playing a defender rather than an attacker also makes it easier.

For an AI, that is true, since they don't have to move as much. But any AI designed for one of these games should be able to attack and defend. Other developers can do it and have done it.

Playing fixed scenarios with fixed objectives makes it easier.

Yes, but the base parameters used in setting up an AI can do this for games like Civ, also. If all of the PG (and the rest of the SSI games) were simple one off scenario games, that would be true, but they have campaigns of detailed scenarios, the ability to make random scenarios and have random campaigns made up of random scenarios. A Civ game is like a series of scenarios strung together, much like a PG game random campaign. In any given situation in Civ, there are viable options and useless ones. You set up the AI base to weed out the useless options first, then work on the viable options.

(i)If the AI expects to be fighting on one front in this game, and without any peek ahead forewarning or planning it gets attacked from another flank it will collapse horribly from poor decisions.

An AI can be set to be able to function on multiple fronts. Look at chess AI to see this.

(ii) The nature of the fixed unit composition and scenario objectives makes it easier to give the AI specific instructions that work. "You have these units, you aren't getting any new units, the enemy has these units, they aren't getting any new units, you need to accomplish X to win, they need to accomplish Y to win".

Irrelevant to the SSI games and my previous comments, see above.

Other issues like the level of bonuses for formations can make errors less costly as well, I don't think any formation errors in those games were as punitive as say a 15% flanking bonus and a 15% discipline bonus (admittedly these can be/have been lowered).

All the SSI games had vastly greater variances provided by bonuses from unit types, terrain, experience. One defensive bonus some units could have (and it was determined randomly when it would occur, by the game) tripled the defense stat of the unit. Units in the SSI games did not just have 1 or 2 combat stats, as in Civ, but had as many as 10. The naval games were more complicated, still.

I'm not suggesting its neigh impossible I'm suggesting that it is much harder to do well, and uses more resources like CPU time. And as for blaming 1UPT for Civ 5's problems it is nothing like blaming evolution for creationisms problems, evolution and creationism are not components of each other, 1UPT is a central component of Civ 5.

You misunderstood. The comparison with Evolution and Creationism was selected for another reason. Creationism is the obsolete, old theory, Evolution is the advance. Civ4 combat is the obsolete form, Civ5 combat is an advance over Civ4. Blaming 1upt for Civ5 failing is absurd because much of the changes to Civ5 were not because of 1upt, but because the game was changed for other unrelated reasons. In other words, apples and oranges, like Evolution and Creationism. An example.

The claim 1upt cause units to be costed so high.

The game was designed to be simpler and more casual than the previous one (Civ4). They also decided to limit map sizes, like in Civ4. This reduction also affected the numbers of units (and probably the number of unit types, too). If you want to limit unit numbers, one way is to raise the cost of building them. This would be taken irregardless of 1upt or stack of doom. Yes, 1upt means if you have too many for a given map size, your game becomes a traffic jam. But that doesn't have to be so if you have more tiles (either larger maps, or a greater number of tiles per map, as I wrote earlier, this would alleviate the traffic jam problem) or you allow units to be able to pass through friendly units. So as you can see, claiming 1upt forced the high cost of units is false reasoning. The reduction in size and simplification of the game is the main reason. And I didn't even get into the high costs of other things like buildings, units were also scaled to better match building costs. The reduction of map sizes, and number of cities one could use, in Civ4 is one of it's main failings in comparison to earlier versions. It is unfortunate that the company decided to keep this in Civ5, but that is a decision made by the suits. They wanted a simpler, shorter game that would appeal to more casual gamers. They started this with Civ4, Civ5 is a continuation of this.

As for 20 year old AI, that's a complete absurdity, the AI has been rewritten with every version of the game, ask any civ IV modder about the AI in civ IV, it's written in a different language from the original civ I for starters.

The core game engine is essentially the same and this means a lot of the base AI routines are also the same. The changes you talk about are additional code added to the core. This is why new ideas incorporated into later versions frequently don't work very well for the AI. One of the reasons I mentioned Civ's pathing failures in the first 4 versions is that it is a consistent AI failure of the game from Civ1 through Civ4. This means they used the same code, or almost the same code, on this. It was not a new code sequence. Most likely, pathing is in a core program that gets passed on to each new version of the game. The pathing has been improved in later versions, but in a way tweeking of the original code would produce, not by gutting the old and making a completely new code. Pathing is very simple AI code and would be simple to design a new one. The fact it was not designed new means that much of the original game code is still in the game. Other evidence for this are that the Civ series has consistent failures in other parts of the game that are carried from version to version. The inability to bombard with artillery. This was not in the 1st 2 versions, but added to Civ3. The AI failed to use bombardment with land units. This means the bombardment was not part of an all new core code, but something that was tacked onto the original code. The original didn't bombard, the add-on was an attempt to add this feature, but it failed because the core was not designed for it and could not be completely modified to use it unless it was rewritten. In Civ4, rather than fix the AI, they took out the bombardment instead. Why? Because the original core code couldn't do it (or the developers then couldn't find a way to do it under their budget) and that core was going to be also in Civ4. If they had programed a complete new AI code, they could have programed the bombardment in, but since they removed bombardment, it is obvious that older code was being used instead.
 
André Alfenaar;10125250 said:
A lot of Sulla's criticism is addressed in this patch. Maybe you should give it a try.

Sulla's criticism is obsolete for a lot of issues, which have been addressed in the latest patch. I wonder how Sulla thinks about CIV V after the patch.

I´m not sure how to read this, as Sulla actually comments on the latest patch is his article. I´m also surprised how few people have apparently actually read the original article...

His criticism is incisive and correct. I´ve tried CiV a couple of weeks, giving it the benefit of the doubt, but it´s basically just a boring game (not only in single player but multiplayer as well). It´s simply not challenging. And the reasons for this are aptly described in Sulla´s article ´What Went Wrong´...
 
Jeelen, people just post stuff without reading, its a well known fact in this community.

I've played CIV religiously...until CIV5. I've moved for many reasons Sulla illustrated. I was flatly bored by the lack of choice in the game.
(by that I mean, every game devolves into get a big empire, and win)
 
Much of your post was either irrelevant to what I wrote or you seemed to misunderstand what I intended and went off on a different tangent or wrote something out of ignorance.

First of all chess AI is a completely different beast. It uses complete look-ahead up to a certain depth, using a position evaluation heuristic on each of the end-positions. I've already shown that this results in looking at absurd numbers of possibilities for 1UPT. If you can't even have your AI calculate all of its possible moves (which no 1UPT AI can do as demonstrated by the numbers earlier in this thread) you can't make any realistic comparison to chess AI, which not only can, but fundamentally relies on doing so.

Secondly, I'm not saying that you can't handle multiple scenarios or very different scenarios, I'm saying the problem occurs in the moment/turns surrounding the change of objectives. The AI will have a hard time with unit movement when objectives transition.

Thirdly, I still don't accept your creationism vs evolutionism analogy or the intent behind it. Civ4 Combat is different from Civ5 combat, but its far from obsolete. If the AI can't handle Civ5 combat then Civ4 combat is in fact superior, as otherwise Civ5 becomes entirely a warmongering game as the AI gets given all sorts of absurd economic bonuses to make up for its lack of combat ability which makes it impossible for players to compete peacefully on reasonable difficulty levels without abusing various other exploits (like improvement pillaging for traded luxury resources).

Furthermore, the idea that the Civ5 combat system and 1UPT are entirely independent of problems like less production, lower resource yields is wrong. Why do you think they decided to lower the amount of gold and production produced? It's because if you can build too many units too easily the AI has too many units to handle in a reasonable timeframe, and the game becomes unfun as the map becomes bogged down with almost every hex containing a unit. The "solutions" of larger maps seem rather unfeasible as the economic side of the game has always been the bigger constraint on map size in Civ. Very few people play on huge or giant maps despite the fact that on such maps the problem of unit creep is less prevalent, because such maps are slow and unwieldy. The fact is having every single hex able to produce resources, become a city, etc. means its harder to have as many hexes in Civ5 as it is in PG3.

It's also not just a matter of what the stats and bonuses are its the nature of flanking bonuses in particular. If bonuses depend only on the unit itself then there is no real additional complexity. Flanking bonuses rely on being able to consider different move orders (namely bringing other units forwards before attacking), which creates complexity for the units. Furthermore, the original PG cheated heavily with buy and repair points, PG2 still had some cheats but these were scaled back. I'd also like to point out that many of PG3's reviews were very critical of the AI as well, and for good reason, it had a lot of the problems that Civ5 does with flanking and discipline type bonuses. In fact some of the forums detail the same issue I'm bringing up, the AI frequently does things in bad orders, like moving a unit up to the front after attacking, when doing so first would have given a larger bonus to that attack, etc. The AI's largely try and use a heuristic to determine a good order to move its units in, and once it has picked that order it moves each unit in that order (it might use multiple stages, so pick an order for stage 1, repeat for stage 2, etc..) but once it has committed to an order its stuck with any problems that order creates, and the heuristics aren't very good at figuring out things like when to flank, since the choice of which units will attack is not decided at the time the order in which to move units for the current stage is being selected.

Furthermore, a more complex combat formula with lots of stats and lots of hidden information about how combat works actually favors the AI as it has accurate numbers for how combat works while the human players rely on feel, intuition and experience. The particular issue I bring up is the dependancy issue, where one unit depends on others for bonuses.

Civ4 bombardment issues is actually very similar to the 1UPT issue now, the AI needs to be able to think about one unit at a time for many tasks, and bombardment requires thinking about large combinations of units. Note that Civ5 has done something similar, significantly scaling back flanking bonuses, discipline bonuses and open terrain penalties because the AI is unable to cope with them in any sensible manner. The open terrain issue is likely related to unit collisions where the AI wants to put a unit on terrain where it doesn't get penalties, but is unable to do so because its own units end up in the way. Flanking and discipline relate to the fact that the AI isn't good at deciding how to flank. If it adjusts unit move orders to bring units in to flank whenever it plans to attack then other problems crop up. Silly decisions about flanking with range units, or diverting units from other plans to flank a unit for a small bonus, etc.

The Civ4 solution was harsher, but more effective, removing bombardment entirely made the AI much more capable militarily. This wasn't because the Civ4 and Civ3 AI were the same (it was a new AI, a significant rewrite), it's because the feature of bombardment was too complex to find a good way for the AI to handle it. It had to look at too large a combination of units at once to properly understand it, and such solutions were rejected because they are way too slow. I'd much prefer a Civ4 that removed bombardment than a Civ4 that left bombardment in and gave the AI +2 happiness in every city to make up for the inability of the AI to deal with bombardment a la Civ5.

Lastly there is no way to switch from no tile limits to 1UPT pathing without entirely rewriting the pathing code.
 
Umm, but don't artillery weapons compensate that?

Let's imagine a scenario: I'm attacked by a balanced stack of 18 units. I didn't have time to prepare, so I only have half of that : 9 units. But 3 of them are catapults. So I attack with those catapults first and severely cripple his stack. At the same time I place my units in 3 stacks of two to block his units (where are ZOC's when you need them!?). I then wait for reinforcements. Should he have attacked me, say with 6 stacks of three instead, I doubt I could have done anything to really stop that army...

A more likely scenario here is in an 18 units vs 9 unit battle the 18 units will split into 3 stacks of 6. It's not a single doom stack, but the idea of having spread out units 1 or 2 at a time is something that easily gets crushed. Catapults are nice when you get to attack first and you catch the enemy stacks in large groups, but they are also very vulnerable if the opponent attacks you first. The problem with your scenario is your opponent is very likely to get the jump on you since MP tends to use simultaneous turns and its far easier to move units in a few stacks than it is to micro your 3 catapults and 6 stacks accurately.

Also combined arms are very effective against stacks of 2 or 3 units since such stacks are usually weak to something.

Another important factor is scouting. If 1/3rd of your units are catapults and I have been paying attention to your building and troop movement, then I'm likely to attack in smaller stacks. Just like if I notice someone building almost entirely horse, I build more spears, etc. But if you have a relatively well balanced army that is say around 1/7th catapults then I'm pretty happy attacking in reasonably sized balanced stacks that aren't all that weak to any particular unit.

Keep in mind one reasonable option after you suicide 3 catapults to get some splash damage is to just take the net resource gain, retreat, heal-up and look for a new attack opportunity later. If you are scattered into stacks of 2 and 3 designed to prevent me penetrating deeper into your territory this can be very effective. And I can heal up far faster than you can rebuild your lost catapults. Yes you can bring reinforcements over if you have more, but assuming I've been producing similar levels of units to you I'm basically +3 units on you now in total.

If by stack of doom you mean always piling all your units into 1 big stack then yes I agree that is silly.
 
I don't see how you can call stacks of 6 units "stacks of doom"...
I dislike simultaneous because once you get to the combat situation it all becomes very messy instead of favoring tactical thinking. If I wanted that kind of a game I'd go play a RTS instead.
If you retreat, then you've just lost your momentum, and I'll be able to outproduce you (because making a large army earlier has cost you development-wise) after having stopped your attack by rushing and drafting units.

My main point again, is that the "stack of doom" is only an issue because the AI lets you get away with it.
 
Jeelen, people just post stuff without reading, its a well known fact in this community.

That may be, but it´ll lead to a lot of pointless posting.

I've played CIV religiously...until CIV5. I've moved for many reasons Sulla illustrated. I was flatly bored by the lack of choice in the game.
(by that I mean, every game devolves into get a big empire, and win)

Indeed. And that is why the game is broke. Which is basically Sulla (who´s a programmer himself) concludes. 1upt was intended to counter this idea - that you need a big empire to win - and it gloriously fails to do that -, which again is confirmed by the latest patches, which actually try to counter the big-empire-wins concept by going back on the original CiV design, thereby effectively admitting their own design flaw...

CiV may gain some sort of fanbase, but it won´t consist of Civ veterans, I´m afraid. (Modders apart - but again, trying to ´fix´ a game by modding is another admission of inherent design flaws.)

I dislike simultaneous because once you get to the combat situation it all becomes very messy instead of favoring tactical thinking.

Unfortunately, that´s how MP currently ´works´(if you can call it that, since most of the time it doesn´t work at all...).

My main point again, is that the "stack of doom" is only an issue because the AI lets you get away with it.

Which is basically saying the AI is no match for an experienced player. But, what´s apparent from CiV so far is that the AI is totally incapable of handling 1upt. Given the fact that 1upt is nothing new (it´s been around at least since the 1990s), somebody simply hasn´t been doing their job.
 
CiV may gain some sort of fanbase, but it won´t consist of Civ veterans, I´m afraid. (Modders apart - but again, trying to ´fix´ a game by modding is another admission of inherent design flaws.)

As accurate as this may be in general, it doesn't say much for Civ4 (or Civ3 for that matter). ;)
 
Unfortunately, that´s how MP currently ´works´
What?! You can't play MP via PBEM?!

(Modders apart - but again, trying to ´fix´ a game by modding is another admission of inherent design flaws.)
If the game is inherently broken, no amount of modding is going to save it. On the other hand, a game might have sound principles, but be simply unfinished (like it was for Space Empires 5). In that case modding is more than welcomed.

So I have a question for all you AI experts out there : can a competent tactical AI even be made for a civilization game (even considering unlimited stacking)? Or it could be, but you would need to hire a whole AI research department and work at it for several years?
 
JEELEN is right. This game is broken. The number of bugs, the stupid AI, etc...everything make CiV a non addictive game. All Civ serie games were time consuming ("one more turn" problem) whereas we can fall asleep with CiV.

As many "old modders", i think that CiV is worst than Civ IV. Our Team is still working on Civ IV BtS. Simply because CiV is sh*tty.
 
After thinking about it, I understand why people don't play Civ4 via PBEM. A SMACX game lasts 100-200 turns. A Space Empires 5 game lasts more, but turns take 30 min on average, and I've already spent up to 8 hours for a single turn in some situations. Whereas in Civ4 you would need 300 turns to barely get into the game - and turns won't last more than 5 minutes until then. So having to manually upload the turn files to a server would not be practical. Sad... :(
 
same thing happened with civ4 blah blah blah internet crybabies want attention

Moderator Action: Not much of a contribution. You might want to hold off posting until you have something to actually contribute to the conversation. Thanks.
 
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