The "best defender" rule in BTS

[slobberinbear]

When the defender is attacked, the game matches up the best defender against the particular attacker. This is nothing new. But in BTS, the AI uses more mixed-unit stacks. This makes it much harder as the attacker to match up properly.

For example, if you bring an axeman and a spearman to defeat a swordsman and a chariot, and you attack with both units on the same turn, your axeman must face the chariot and the spearman has to defeat the swordsman. The defender will avoid your intended advantages. In fact, you really can't get to use your countering troops to advantage until the latter part of the offensive, i.e., when the defender's "best defender" choices are limited, and at that point the battle is likely decided regardless.

The AI's mixed-unit defense has several general implications (especially in city assaults), since we're no longer facing AI stacks of homogenous units.

First, we have to bring more units, all other things being equal, because the odds are greater that the defender will be defending with a unit that counters whichever attacker we use.

Second, siege becomes even more valuable, as it does not have a designated defensive counter when attacking. Also, the collateral damage helps reduce the defender's countering advantages against our other units by reducing their strengths.

Third, our city assault stacks need to be primarily composed so that our best overall unit (i.e., with the highest attack strength against cities) is prominently featured. A rule of thumb: 1/3 of the stack is the "best attacker" (e.g., swordsmen), 1/3 of the stack is siege, and the remaining 1/3 is support (countering units (axes, spears, chariots), garrison troops, medic, etc.).

 

[r_rolo1]

I would add:

4th - Be ready to sacrifice more units ( hence bring some obsolete ones or bigger numbers )

 

[LlamaCat]

good points. But my thinking on this matter of every unit having a counter, is that only the defender gets to pick and choose a counter, not the attacker. This includes the human player as well. When you are the attacker, you are taking the initiative and in theory you are instigating battles or more generally war, so you don't get the advantage of picking a counter. You do get to pick useful promotions and like you say, bring better numbers (or have more advanced units).

But the idea of picking a unit that counters other units is best left to defense. If you see chariots coming at you, build spearmen; if swordsmen, build axes, etc.

 

[Innawerkz]

I like it. It raises the value of several concepts that were never really pressed before:

Flanking becomes more important. Cavalry can now begin whittling down the better defenders or, at a minimum, create a possible weakness to exploit. It has raised the value of the horses - even more so with the Catapult collateral damage.

Spies are more useful. Before, at the declaration of and during an invasion it becomes more effective to focus my pillaging on a single resource, possibly creating a weakness to exploit.

Separate your invasion stacks. I find this has a double-bonus. Greater flexibility in pillaging strategic resources and advancement and creates better opportunities to find a hole in the counter attacks. It is less likely that the AI will counter with two symmetrical and effective stacks. one is bound to be easier to take. Overwhelm it, and converge against the other stack.

I might add that an Axeman attacking a Chariot will win.

 

[slobberinbear]

good points. But my thinking on this matter of every unit having a counter, is that only the defender gets to pick and choose a counter, not the attacker. This includes the human player as well. When you are the attacker, you are taking the initiative and in theory you are instigating battles or more generally war, so you don't get the advantage of picking a counter. You do get to pick useful promotions and like you say, bring better numbers (or have more advanced units).

But the idea of picking a unit that counters other units is best left to defense. If you see chariots coming at you, build spearmen; if swordsmen, build axes, etc.

True. Countering works out to be more of a defensive concept, especially in city battles. However, against small stacks in the field, it pays to have countering units as the attacker, if for no other reason than to save your city attackers for the city assault.

 

[pigswill]

If you attack with a reasonable amount of seige the best defender is the one with the least collateral damage. If you inflict enough collateral it doesn't matter what unit you use to administer the coup de grace.

 

[zienth]

I've also found that a unit with both shock and cover can be handy. Formation would also be nice to add on. With the right promotions you can make an uncounterable unit. Or at least a tough to counter unit.

Of course, that takes a few promotions, so it's not something you'll be able to do all of the time. And once you've got a unit with all those promotions, you have to make him one of your first attackers, which means he may not live very long. But it's still a decent way to put an initial dent in a combined arms stack.

Zienth

 

[xanadux]

Played my first game as Hannibal last night, and early game, his UU is just awesome. Although only having a power of 5, the extra withdrawal chance plus free flanking 1 means that with just 1 promotion, they will survive any battle half the time no matter the odds. They are not countered so well because they get 50% vs. melee, so spearmen get only half their normal advantage. I mention this because this unit takes care of all your early game problems taking cities. Drop the defenses with spies, and conquer. Nothing but numbers can save your enemy pre-cats.

 

[LuckyAC]

If you had shock, cover and formation, that would be +25% against each of those types. If instead you had gotten three strength promotions, you would have +30% against each of those types, as well as against siege, gunpowder, armor etc. If you had triple city raider, it would be +75% against everything (assuming you were attacking cities).

I think it's pretty safe to say that it's never worthwhile to have both shock and cover on the same unit. At best, you get a 5% boost, but at the expense of flexibility and promotability (when that unit becomes a rifleman, neither of those promotions will do you any good).

 

[madscientist]

Played my first game as Hannibal last night, and early game, his UU is just awesome. Although only having a power of 5, the extra withdrawal chance plus free flanking 1 means that with just 1 promotion, they will survive any battle half the time no matter the odds. They are not countered so well because they get 50% vs. melee, so spearmen get only half their normal advantage. I mention this because this unit takes care of all your early game problems taking cities. Drop the defenses with spies, and conquer. Nothing but numbers can save your enemy pre-cats.

The best counter to hannibals UU is another horse archer (at least when elephants are not available). I think this is the one time where the best counter to a UU is the same non unique unit.

 

[mudphud]

already been said nvm

 

[oyzar]

shock cover and formation is strictly worse than just getting 3 more combat promotions...

 

[zienth]

If you had shock, cover and formation, that would be +25% against each of those types. If instead you had gotten three strength promotions, you would have +30% against each of those types, as well as against siege, gunpowder, armor etc. If you had triple city raider, it would be +75% against everything (assuming you were attacking cities).

I think it's pretty safe to say that it's never worthwhile to have both shock and cover on the same unit. At best, you get a 5% boost, but at the expense of flexibility and promotability (when that unit becomes a rifleman, neither of those promotions will do you any good).

Very good points. I stand corrected.

Zienth

 

[slobberinbear]

The "counter" promotions are best used, IMO, on a unit that is already a counter. Formation for spears, Shock for Axes, etc. Nothing wrong with a little counter specialization, as it were.

I agree that the Combat promotions are underrated. You can really see them in action if you put them on a Great General unit. Combat VI is nothing to sneeze at. The unit's adjusted strength becomes so high it overcomes the countering unit, which usually has a lower base strength.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

A couple of observations:

- Since the AI varies its stacks a lot, when attacking it is better to have a single type of attacker rather than a mix. (You may still need some stack defenders but it is more efficient if all the attackers are the same type).

Eg opponent has 2 crossbows and 2 pikes.

Attacker has 6 maces - eventually you kill the crossbows and the pikes are slaughtered.

Attacker has 6 knights - eventually you kill the pikes and the crossbows are slaughtered.

Attacker has 3 knights + 3 maces - whatever you attack with is countered. By the time you finish off the counter units, you are attacking with your other type of unit which is also countered.

- Secondly both melee and horse units have very hard counters that get huge bonuses against them. Crossbows/Axes/Spears/Pikes. The same is not true of archery units or gunpowder units. This means they are very useful as stack defenders. Eg a crossbow with the cover promotion has no unit that it needs to fear until knights. I find these an excellent stack defender to protect against enemy crossbows.

 

[KMadCandy]

this relates to the thread title but not the direction it's been going so far *giggle*

i'm futzing about with privateers now, getting GG points while at peace. brennus had a stack of 4 caravels and 4 galleons at sea, on the way to stir up trouble, and i'm not even sure who his target is. i had a heap of caravels in range and i figured i'd hit his stack, maybe change his mind altho i bet even if i killed them all he'd still go to war, they're so stubborn once they've made up their minds.

my privateers in that bunch are drill promoted except a nurse. at first they all targetted caravels, odds were always 90%+, usually 95%+. i won all but one fight vs caravels, and when they were all dead except one badly injured (below 1 health), then the galleons started defending. against the galleons, privateers with the same drill2 and drill3 promotions had 85% and worse odds. full-health privateers, these weren't injured from the first fights.

the galleons were stacked with the caravels, but obviously the game wasn't picking the strictly by-the-numbers "this unit has the best chance of winning vs. KMad's that anonymous privateer". maybe it's coded to not have transport units defend until necessary? that would actually be spiffy and not a bug, i just had never thought of it, or noticed it happening before. i stopped for dinner and saw this thread, figured i'd ask ... was that what was going on? ps i haven't hit enter after that turn, so i still don't know who he's gonna declare war on. here's hoping it's not me!

 

[Airefuego]

Combat x 3 is great! ...if I get to take all the promotions before the unit heads into action.

But often the axe is about to attack some enemy and has one promotion saved up. So I give it the one it needs to win that battle - ie shock, or cover. Especially early game, when I am out in the field and there are barbs about and I don't have a stack, I have a cold, lonely axe who has to win one on one.

Or if it's a battle - say beseiging the enemy capital early, pre-cats - and I have a lot of units in my stack, all with one promotion pending,I am sometimes going to promote different ones during the battle depending upon which defender is up next. Or even to CHANGE which defender is up next.

Early game, I don't mind having a versatile stack with some city-killers, some axe-killers etc. I like to micromanage my battles!

Later game with big stacks of identical units - yep, pile on the combats. Or pinch. Or those triple-city raider axes promoted to rifles... mmm....

 

[axident]

Enough collateral damage, and it won't even matter.

Overload your enemy. A ton of swords, a spear or two for defense (more if AI has lots of mounted), and a medical chariot, can overwhelm a "balanced" AI defense force of axes-spears-archers as the axemen eventually succumb to the weight of the swords, and the rest of the AI defenders wind up being archers and spears or something.

 

[ButSam]

I wish there were an option to choose the defender when attacked. Let's say the AI has 1 gunpowder unit, 1 Axeman, and 1 Warrior; I have 1 Axemen and 1 Warrior defending a city. When the Gunpowder unit attacks, I would rather defend with the Warrior since it doesn't matter what I defend with -- I am quite likely to lose. When the Axeman & Warrior attack, I am likely to win, assuming there are some good defensive bonuses in the cities (e.g., it is reasonable size, and/or built on hills/forest).

In other words, in this situation, the way the game currently works I will lose the city to the AI's stack. If I could choose my defenders, though, I could survive another turn -- which may be just enough to rush extra defenders, move people to the attacked city, draft people, etc.

Sam

 

[Phrederick]

I wish there were an option to choose the defender when attacked.

That would be nice, but it would quickly take way too long, and it would have to be complemented with a corresponding advantage for the AI.