The Celts

[Cokolwiek]

If Rhiannon is very strong, then IMO all the other celt pantheons should be boosted up to Rhiannon's level, not the other way around.

Yeah. Scaling of one science per four citizens in a city is not only bad when compared to immediate five production and gold and two culture in the city. It just horribly bad in itself and will take forever to give you three science by what time it will be 0.1% or 0.5% of your output.

 

[CrazyG]

Does anyone else think Rhiannon is overpowered compared to other pantheons (maybe moreso on high difficulty)? You get 2c per city, which means you can spam cities in the earlygame without fear of ruining your culture, AND it combos with the Tribute policy for Authority, which is maybe the strongest tree for the Celts. Then, in the middlegame your +1h1g on all connected resources starts to scale really high, which is a pretty big benefit which also enables a lot of tiles to get +1g in Golden Ages that otherwise wouldn't. Whenever I try to convince myself to choose something else it always seems not worth giving up Rhiannon. Playing these Pict-Rhiannon openings on Deity is so powerful it feels like you're playing Immortal, the only thing that really compares to it is Spain.

I'm curious if you play these games all the way to the end and win? I know it seems strong early on but the celidh hall bonus is pretty weak and the Celts don't have much going their way in the mid or late game. I've actually lost several games as an early powerhouse, such as Carthage or Spain, despite an amazing start because the AI comes back in the later eras.

A light nerf to Rhiannon would be moving the +2 culture to a building, like the monument, instead of the city. This would slow down snowballing slightly and remove a bit of flexibility. I don't think more than a small change is needed (if any change is needed at all).

Really I think the most OP pantheon is the jungle stuff, but I think Celts have a hills bias so you probably don't use it all that often. It's especially gamebreaking if you get jungle furs or truffles, which while rare do appear on standard maps.

 

[DeAnno]

I'm curious if you play these games all the way to the end and win?

No with the planes issue that existed for a long time I took the opportunity to play a lot of openings, the only game I've played to the end recently was an Immortal Egypt CV and the planes bug felt really weird and annoying for that because I was operating out of a string of puppets and they could only hold one plane/missile each despite me having like 18 oil, it was pretty lousy.

You're probably right that I'm overestimating them because their middle/late game is weaker, though as I said Rhiannon does at least scale with your tiles to a degree, especially in golden ages. The Jungle pantheon is pretty strong too but on a couple cases where I've had calendar resources I've avoided it because it would lose steam pretty quickly, I agree it would be a really cool pick with Truffles (I don't think I've seen jungle furs before.)

I'm not even necessarily arguing Rhiannon is most of the problem, you could buff up a lot of the other pantheons too. But many of them aren't competitive with it right now and that's a shame.

 

[crdvis16]

No with the planes issue that existed for a long time I took the opportunity to play a lot of openings, the only game I've played to the end recently was an Immortal Egypt CV and the planes bug felt really weird and annoying for that because I was operating out of a string of puppets and they could only hold one plane/missile each despite me having like 18 oil, it was pretty lousy.

You're probably right that I'm overestimating them because their middle/late game is weaker, though as I said Rhiannon does at least scale with your tiles to a degree, especially in golden ages. The Jungle pantheon is pretty strong too but on a couple cases where I've had calendar resources I've avoided it because it would lose steam pretty quickly, I agree it would be a really cool pick with Truffles (I don't think I've seen jungle furs before.)

I'm not even necessarily arguing Rhiannon is most of the problem, you could buff up a lot of the other pantheons too. But many of them aren't competitive with it right now and that's a shame.

IMO part of the trickyness is that the pantheons vary in strength between AI and human players. Some of the weaker ones might be pretty decent in AI hands and if they get buffed it might go overboard. If someone proposes some buffs they might want to keep that in mind.

 

[pineappledan]

I don't think the last round of buffs to Celts 3 patches ago were comprehensive enough to bring them up to snuff. There's still a lot of work I would do to rebalance the pantheons, not least of which would be moving the 3Faith from the UA directly onto each pantheon, so Celts don't lose their biggest source of faith from founding a religion. I think it's completely bonkers that Celts have this UA that rubber bands them from decent faith generation to the worst in the game after founding. Every other civ gets Faith from pantheons that persists after they found, except the Celts.

 

[Legen]

Does anyone else think Rhiannon is overpowered compared to other pantheons (maybe moreso on high difficulty)? You get 2c per city, which means you can spam cities in the earlygame without fear of ruining your culture, AND it combos with the Tribute policy for Authority, which is maybe the strongest tree for the Celts. Then, in the middlegame your +1h1g on all connected resources starts to scale really high, which is a pretty big benefit which also enables a lot of tiles to get +1g in Golden Ages that otherwise wouldn't. Whenever I try to convince myself to choose something else it always seems not worth giving up Rhiannon. Playing these Pict-Rhiannon openings on Deity is so powerful it feels like you're playing Immortal, the only thing that really compares to it is Spain.

With Authority, I used to have more success with Lugh instead of Rhiannon. Authority's production allows for faster markets, giving every city earlier access to that buffed specialist that covers four needs (distress, poverty, illiteracy, boredom) with just one population slot. You can be quite lenient with expansion that way. It also address Authority's relative lack of science and allows you to maintain a large army without ending in negative gpt. Rhiannon didn't give me the same explosive results as Authority.

My experience was that Rhiannon performed better as Progress instead. Progress has a much easier time getting the workers and improvements done with Liberty and Organization, to a point that every new city you found gets that +1 on multiple resources much more readily, with fast city development. Feels like I'm playing with Authority alongside Progress's usual bonuses. Progress can cover Rhiannon's lack of science and food yields and is the Ancient Era tree that most rewards you for having extra production and gold at disposal.

Rhiannon's scaling is decent. I find that it doesn't fall off if you focus on golden ages (Mosques, Artistry, Chichen Itza, Freedom), as that 5 on the Ceilidh Hall allows for frequent enough GAs for those GA bonuses to be worth it, assuming you went wide.

I think many celtic pantheons are still in need of buffs. The ones that are meant to have good scaling just don't scale well enough to justify picking them over the ones with good early bonuses.

 

[pineappledan]

@Gazebo, could I make a swing at the Celt pantheon balance? I could make a GitHub commit with the changes.

 

[Gazebo]

@Gazebo, could I make a swing at the Celt pantheon balance? I could make a GitHub commit with the changes.

Sure. Please do post intended changes here before making a commit, as it helps to track changes.

G

 

[pineappledan]

Spoiler Current :

Bran, the Sleeping Guardian
+25% increase to Ranged Combat Strength, +25% Growth, and +10 Culture when a Citizen is born, scaling with Era. +1 Happiness to Following City
+4 Faith from Ceilidh Hall.

Cernunnos, the Horned Stag
+1 Food and Gold from Forests, +1Production and Science from Jungles. +1Faith from unimproved forest and jungles. +1 from camps.
+2 Culture from Ceilidh Hall.

Dagda, the All-Father
+1 Culture, Gold, Production, and Science for every 3 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities.
+2 Happiness from Ceilidh Hall.

Epona, the Great Mare
Receive +10Science, Culture, and Food when your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
+4 Food from Ceilidh Hall.

Lugh, the Skilled One
+2 Culture, Science, Food, and Gold in Cities with a Specialist. +25%Great Person Generation during Golden Ages
+3 Production from Ceilidh Hall.

Mannanan, Son of the Sea
+3 Food, +3 Production, and +4 Gold in coastal Cities.
+2 Great Admiral Points from Ceilidh Hall.

Morrigan, the Harbinger
Earn Gold, Culture, and Golden Age Points if you kill a unit.
+2 Great General Points from Ceilidh Hall.

Nuada, the Silver-Handed King
+1 Culture for every 10 Gold per turn, Capped at half the number of Followers in the City
+1 Golden Age Points for every 5 Science per turn, and +3 Gold from City Connections.
+5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.

Ogma, the Learned
+1 Science for every 4 Citizens in a city.
+3 Science, Culture, and Great Scientist Points in Capital.
+5 Science from Ceilidh Hall.

Rhiannon the Sovereign
+2 Culture in every City. +1 Gold and Production from every improved resource.
+5 Golden Age Points from Ceilidh Hall.

Spoiler Proposed new changes in BLUE :

Bran, the Sleeping Guardian
+25% increase to Ranged Combat Strength, +25% Growth, and +10 Culture when a Citizen is born, scaling with Era. +1 Happiness to Following City
+4 Faith from Ceilidh Hall.

Cernunnos, the Horned Stag
+1 Food and Gold from Forests, +1Production and Science from Jungles. +1Faith from unimproved forest and jungles. +1 from camps and +2 from Plantations.
+2 Culture from Ceilidh Hall.

Dagda, the All-Father
+1 Culture, Gold, and Production for every 5 Citizens in a City.
+1 Food, Faith, and Golden Age Points in the Capital for every Pantheon ever founded (caps at 8 Pantheons)
+2 Happiness from Ceilidh Hall.

Note: The issue with God-King, that it only counts pantheon followers, and not your religion, exists here as well.
Effectively, Dagda ceases to work after you found and spread your religion, so Celts functionally have no pantheon or UA if they pick this belief as it exists now.

Spoiler Proof :

2 pantheon followers in Caerphilly
1 pantheon follower and 5 orthodoxy followers in Ynys Wydryn
1 culture from "religion" (Dagda pantheon)

Spoiler Proof :

Epona, the Great Mare
+3 Border Growth in every City. Receive +10Science, Culture, and Food when your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
+4 Food from Ceilidh Hall.

Lugh, the Skilled One
+2 Culture, Science, Food, and Gold in Cities with a Specialist. +10% Wonder Production
+3 Production from Ceilidh Hall.

Mannanan, Son of the Sea
+2 Food, +2 Production, and +2 Gold in coastal Cities. 1Food and 1Gold for every 2Citizens working Sea tiles in your Cities.
+2 Great Admiral Points from Ceilidh Hall.

Morrigan, the Harbinger
Earn Gold, Culture, and Golden Age Points if you kill a unit. +5 HP healed per turn in Friendly Territory.
+2 Great General Points from Ceilidh Hall.

Nuada, the Silver-Handed
+1 Culture for every 10 Gold per turn, Capped at half the number of Followers in the City
+1 Golden Age Points for every 5 Science per turn, and +3 Gold from City Connections. +2 Science per active active Trade Route to or from the City
+5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.

Ogma, the Learned
+1 Science for every 4 Citizens in a city. +3 Science, Culture, and Great Scientist Points in Capital. +1Production from Great Works
+5 Science from Ceilidh Hall.

Rhiannon the Sovereign
+2 Culture in every City. +1 Gold and Production from every improved resource.
+5 Golden Age Points from Ceilidh Hall.

The big ones I think are necessary to change... somehow:

• Morrigan - Just doesn't have the oomph necessary to compete with something like Aztec, who have a similar bonus in their UA in addition to other stuff, and can pick another pantheon on top.
• Dagda - Literally unplayable right now. The pantheon stops working after you found a religion. Until something is changed about how Belief_YieldPerXFollowers works, this has to be changed to something else.

The things that are more preference:

• Nuada - I haven't had a chance to try Nuada since the changes, but I like the idea of adding some symmetry to the belief. It currently gives gold to feed into one converter, but not science to feed the other converter. An alternative to per trade route would be to add +15% during WLTKDs. This is a unique yield type for that bonus, and gives an obvious synergy with theocratic rule ( on WLTKD) and synagogues ( on WLTKD). With the added flavor that Nuada was the legendary king of Ireland, who was forced to renounce his crown when he lost his hand in battle, and had his kingship restored when he was given a silver hand to replace the one he lost. Also, an obvious synergy with the free WLTKD that the Ceilidh call triggers... I think I have pretty much convinced myself that would be better now.
• Mannan - was just flat yields per city. Aside from Lugh, every other celt pantheon has some form of scaling bonus. So I added a scaler per X terrain so it would have something.
• Epona - gives lots of yields for border growth, but it doesn't grow your borders any faster. Arguably, it is slower than God of the Expanse, and Celts have no other synergies to add to it, so this belief has to do some heavy lifting, or else I will go play Russia or Mongolia instead.
• Ogma - Ogma is credited with inventing the Celtic script, so I thought adding some bonus to Great Works would be apt. I don't think the belief needs much more, but it is one of the most front-loaded, early power curve beliefs, and would benefit from a small buff to its mid-game
• Lugh - Like Mannan, just flat yields per city and no scaling bonus. I also considered adding a yield on building construction instead, but thought adding the wonder production here would be more unique (no beliefs currently use the bonus wonder production), and it gives Lugh a unique niche as the tall empire pantheon option.
• Cernunnos - I think this pantheon is good, but losing so many yields by improving a plantation resource sucks, so I think just 1 or 2 yields on plantations would soften that a bit. Right now, you get way more, better yields by not improving things like bananas and Cotton, and I think that's a bit silly.

Things I don't think need changes:
Bran and Rhiannon seem fine to me right now. Bran has a clear niche as the turtling/tall belief, and Rhiannon has a clear niche as a wide peaceful progress belief that, despite not having any scaling, still feels relevant if you can manage to keep growing your empire.

 

[Drakle]

Ogma, the Learned
+1 Science for every 4 Citizens in a city. +3 Science, Culture, and Great Scientist Points in Capital. +1Production from Great Works
+5 Science from Ceilidh Hall.

Most of those are good, but I think this pigeonholes this to Tradition a bit too much when Wisdom and this could also be a Progress. Something aside from Great Works would work better I think.

 

[pineappledan]

Most of those are good, but I think this pigeonholes this to Tradition a bit too much when Wisdom and this could also be a Progress. Something aside from Great Works would work better I think.

Ogma is credited with inventing the Celtic script, so I thought adding some bonus to Great Works would be apt. I don't think the belief needs much more, but it is one of the most front-loaded, early power curve beliefs, and would benefit from a small buff to its mid-game

as for pigeonholing, isn’t that okay to do with Celtic pantheons? Celts have a choice of playstyle a, so narrowing seems like a feature, not a bug. With tradition, there is an obvious synergy with the extra musician slot you get in all cities with the Ceilidh hall.

 

[CrazyG]

Things I don't think need changes:
Bran and Rhiannon seem fine to me right now. Bran has a clear niche as the turtling/tall belief, and Rhiannon has a clear niche as a wide peaceful progress belief that, despite not having any scaling, still feels relevant if you can manage to keep growing your empire.

This is a big effort, thanks for taking it on. I like not changing Rhiannon and using it as the base to evaluate the others.

But, I think Bran is pretty bad (both current values and for your list). If you do the math the culture on birth is just too small to really matter. Easy comparison is Rhiannon's 2 culture per city, it's not possible to grow fast enough during early game to keep up. Late game it can surpass thanks to era scaling but it still is weak at that stage (freedom gives 50 culture for births scaling with era, for comparison). It's other bonuses are worse than Rhiannon's in my opinion.

as for pigeonholing, isn’t that okay to do with Celtic pantheons? Celts have a choice of playstyle a, so narrowing seems like a feature, not a bug.

I'd rather Ogma get pigeonholed to progress than tradition, as that's how I've been using it. Could the production be given to libraries instead?

 

[CrazyG]

Dagda - Literally unplayable right now. The pantheon stops working after you found a religion. Until something is changed about how Belief_YieldPerXFollowers works, this has to be changed to something else.

Dagda isn't unplayable. The current version intends to redirect all the yields to your holy city, which is very advantageous compared to getting them spread out among different cities. It's especially potent with puppet cities, and all the production flowing to a single city is great for spamming wonders or military.

I don't know why it's working that way in your example, but I've played games with both God-King and Dagda and they used to be in effect after the pantheon stage. Maybe it switches when the religion becomes the majority or something?

Amateurgamer did a good job of playing with all the pantheons and evaluating them.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/celtic-pantheon-playthrough-of-an-amateur.652841/

He gives Dagda an S.

 

[pineappledan]

But, I think Bran is pretty bad (both current values and for your list). If you do the math the culture on birth is just too small to really matter. Easy comparison is Rhiannon's 2 culture per city, it's not possible to grow fast enough during early game to keep up. Late game it can surpass thanks to era scaling but it still is weak at that stage (freedom gives 50 culture for births scaling with era, for comparison). It's other bonuses are worse than Rhiannon's in my opinion.

Maybe increase to 15?
I don't want to discount the numerous other bonuses; Bran already got a major buff with the city defense change and the addition of 1 per city.

I'd rather Ogma get pigeonholed to progress than tradition, as that's how I've been using it. Could the production be given to libraries instead?

...Why would you do that?
90% of Ogma's bonuses are in a single city, and it's always been that way. It's already the closest thing to an OCC pantheon. My proposed Dagda change has a bigger, stronger scaler for actually going wide.

I don't know why it's working that way in your example, but I've played games with both God-King and Dagda and they used to be in effect after the pantheon stage. Maybe it switches when the religion becomes the majority or something?

I've clearly demonstrated that is how it works. It is the exact same table as God-King, and therefore has the exact same problem as God-King. @AndreyK noted this last week, and G confirmed that is how it works. It's possible AG88 simply didn't notice that his yields from his pantheon went away because he never played far enough into the game to have his religion in all his cities.

It counts your pantheon followers in your own cities, even if your religion is the majority in your own city, as I demonstrated in my previous post. The 1 pantheon follower in my capital combined with the 2 in my 2nd city to give me the 3 needed to still get 1 in the capital, but the 5 citizens following my religion aren't contributing, otherwise I would be getting 2.

Spoiler 2nd Attempt :

Bran, the Sleeping Guardian
+25% increase to Ranged Combat Strength and +25% Growth in all Cities. +15Culture and Gold when a Citizen is born, scaling with Era. +1 Happiness to Following City
+5 Food from Ceilidh Hall.

Cernunnos, the Horned Stag
+1 Food and Gold from Forests, +1Production and Science from Jungles. +1Faith from unimproved forest and jungles. +1 from camps and +2 from Plantations.
+2 Culture from Ceilidh Hall.

Dagda, the All-Father
Dagda, the All-Father
+1 Culture, Gold, Production, and Science in your Capital for every 3 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities.
+2 Happiness from Ceilidh Hall.
+2 Happiness from Ceilidh Hall.

Epona, the Great Mare
+3 Border Growth in every City. Receive +10Science, Culture, and Food when your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
+5 Border Growth from Ceilidh Hall.

Lugh, the Skilled One
+2 Culture, Science, Food, and Gold in Cities with a Specialist. +10% Wonder Production
+3 Production from Ceilidh Hall.

Mannanan, Son of the Sea
+3 Food, +3 Production, and +3 Gold in coastal Cities. 1Production and 1Gold for every 2Citizens working Sea tiles in your Cities.
+2 Great Admiral Points from Ceilidh Hall.

Morrigan, the Harbinger
Earn Gold, Culture, and Golden Age Points if you kill a unit. +5 HP healed per turn in Friendly Territory.
+2 Great General Points from Ceilidh Hall.

Nuada, the Silver-Handed (v.1)
+1 Culture for every 10 Gold per turn, Capped at half the number of Followers in the City
+1 Golden Age Points for every 5 Science per turn, and +3 Gold from City Connections. +15% Science during WLTKDs
+5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.

Nuada, the Silver-Handed (v.2)
+1 science and GAP for every 10 Gold per turn.
33 for city connections.
1Gold for every non-specialist in the city.
+5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.​

Ogma, the Learned
+1 Science for every 4 Citizens in a city. +3 Science, Culture, Great Scientist Points, and Great Writer Points in the Capital. +1Production from Great Works
+5 Science from Ceilidh Hall.

Rhiannon the Sovereign
+2 Culture in every City. +1 Gold and Production from every improved resource.
+5 Golden Age Points from Ceilidh Hall.

Changes from v1:

• added a 2nd option for nuada (I'm split on which one is better. Input wanted)
• Bran gives more yields on birth and has food from Ceilidh hall (moved from Epona)
• Epona now gives additional Border growth on Ceilidh hall
• increased Mannanan back to the original 3/3/3 on initial coastal city yields, changed yields on sea tiles to (sea tiles already have lots of food. More isn't necessary)
• Added GWriter points to Ogma (Once again, he invented the script). Doubling down on the Tall Tradition thing.
• Dagda reverted. probably fine as is

Note: With the addition of a Border Growth yield to Epona, Faith on Ceilidh Halls is now available as a unique yield type. It would be possible to do an 11th celtic pantheon, if we were inclined, but I don't think it's necessary. 10 is a nice round number.

 

[amateurgamer88]

Spoiler :

 

[pineappledan]

Spoiler :

View attachment 569905

Maybe you have to completely eliminate your pantheon from all cities, and only then will it start counting your religion?

 

[amateurgamer88]

Maybe you have to completely eliminate your pantheon from all cities, and only then will it start counting your religion?

What if you get your capital to 6 Followers of your religion first without ridding all the Pantheon followers?

 

[pineappledan]

I need to reroll that experiment it seems. Dagda is either counting my 3 pantheon followers or my 5 religion followers, but I can't tell which one. It is evident, however, that it isn't counting both.

If it only counts pantheon followers then it will eventually become useless in Medieval, as your last pantheon followers convert. If it immediately starts counting religious followers, then it's still useful, but janky as hell, because you will lose a ton of yields all of a sudden once you found and your pantheon stops counting all your secondary cities' pantheon followers until you convert them to your religion.

It's too late for me to test this now though. nighty-night!

 

[CrazyG]

I've clearly demonstrated that is how it works. It is the exact same table as God-King, and therefore has the exact same problem as God-King. @AndreyK noted this last week, and G confirmed that is how it works. It's possible AG88 simply didn't notice that his yields from his pantheon went away because he never played far enough into the game to have his religion in all his cities.

You misunderstood those posts. When you get a great prophet, the system stops counting pantheon followers and only counts religion followers. So your yields drop immediately after founding a religion (this is what is being discussed in that thread). Once your religion gets spreading the yields come back.

Dagda is very strong in it's current form (it's probably the overall strongest choice for most terrain), even with the short term loss of yields. There's no reason to dramatically rework it.

...Why would you do that?
90% of Ogma's bonuses are in a single city, and it's always been that way. It's already the closest thing to an OCC pantheon. My proposed Dagda change has a bigger, stronger scaler for actually going wide.

I don't see the reason for attitude. There was a contrast celts game and Ogma with progress was used:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...nals-ii-the-celts-new-players-welcome.636685/

A lot of the celtic pantheons are open ended and work well with different approaches. Ogma's culture and science creates an excellent start for a progress civ (it helps progress more than tradition IMO) and it has some alright scaling, the 1 per 4 is certainly worse than the old 1 per 3. It's probably a bit weaker than Rhiannon overall, though maybe not when you consider the 5 science per Celidh Hall (which is such a beautiful bonus for going wide).

 

[pineappledan]

I don't see the reason for attitude. There was a contrast celts game and Ogma with progress was used:

Sorry, the sass wasn't on purpose. Must have come off less jokey as I intended.

My point stands, however, the broadcast intent of Ogma appears to be tall with few cities. I am not taking anything away from Ogma, so you can play it just as well as you have before.
A bonus on libraries is a bonus for building classes which celts, up to this point, have reserved for their Ceilidh hall, so I am reluctant to do something like that. Furthermore, That seems like a nerf in regards to late game, since you can put several GWs in a city

You misunderstood those posts. When you get a great prophet, the system stops counting pantheon followers and only counts religion followers. So your yields drop immediately after founding a religion (this is what is being discussed in that thread). Once your religion gets spreading the yields come back.

Yeah, it's pretty clear I misread them now. I'll go back an edit my posts. Dagda probably doesn't need to be changed at all (and maybe could stand to be nerfed, actually).