The Cold War...

[red_elk]

My point is that there was no freedom of expression in the USSR and people were in fact jailed and exiled for their opinions. That's what I menat to say and I don't see how you can take issue with such historical truth.

Note that I did not call the USSR of the 70's an Orwellian nightmare. That was the USSR of the 40's, which was indeed the closest mankind ever got to the miserable world described in 1984. No wonder Stalin was the inspiration for Big Brother. People really were sent to their frozen deaths for the content of private letters. I don't think you grew up in the 40's, so the society you grew up on (probably the 80's, where liberalism was already taking hold) really should not remember an Orwellian nightmare.

Of course, some somewhate Orwellian features of the USSR survived all the way to early 80's. See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union

Basically, it was common practice in the USSR, including in the 70's, to lock up anyone who was vocally critical, or potentially vocally critical, in psychiatrical hospitals where they were subject to vast abuse. Note how many trade unionists were placed on psychiatric arrest in the 70's.

By the way, Orwell's "1984" was written about Britain, not USSR.
I'm not going to explain where and why exactly you are wrong here, because from my previous experience such discussion with you will be fruitless. (Just one example - the peak point of Stalin's repression were 1930-s, not 40-s, wartime). I can only suggest you to read a few books about Soviet history (and may be some literature), to understand better how Soviet society was organized, and the reasoning behind decisions of Soviet rulers, including Stalin.

What a nice country! Much better than the US!

Yes, it was a nice country. Far from perfect in some aspects, but in many others indeed much better than the US.

 

[Yeekim]

Once again, I didn't say it was a great place to live, I said it was better than 1972 USA.

Yes, it was a nice country. Far from perfect in some aspects, but in many others indeed much better than the US.

As a former citizen in USSR, I can only say that this belief is endearing

However, it is quite evident, that not many in 1970-s USSR shared this belief. If the party really believed in this, there would've been no need to build the Berlin Wall, for instance. There would've been no need to censor the press and the news.

If your country is indeed the best place in the world to live, you don't need to go at such lenghts to keep people from leaving. That´s your judgement right there.

 

[red_elk]

As a former citizen in USSR, I can only say that this belief is endearing

You are too young to remember anything except late 80-s, the time just before collapse.

Yes, it was a nice country. Far from perfect in some aspects, but in many others indeed much better than the US.

If your country is indeed the best place in the world to live...

 

[luiz]

By the way, Orwell's "1984" was written about Britain, not USSR.

Is that supposed to be an answer?
1984 is about what Britain could become, Big Brother and lots of aspects of the Party were inspired by the USSR.

I'm not going to explain where and why exactly you are wrong here, because from my previous experience such discussion with you will be fruitless. (Just one example - the peak point of Stalin's repression were 1930-s, not 40-s, wartime). I can only suggest you to read a few books about Soviet history (and may be some literature), to understand better how Soviet society was organized, and the reasoning behind decisions of Soviet rulers, including Stalin.

You aren't going to explain where I went wrong because everything I wrote is true. I used the 40's instead of the 30's because that's when the most infamous case of someone being sent to the Gulag for the content of a private letter happened. That's the example of an owellian nightmare I chose, I could have chosen others where the 30's would be more adequate, but I didn't. Understood?

Yes, it was a nice country. Far from perfect in some aspects, but in many others indeed much better than the US.

A nice country with vast censorship, no freedom of speech or assembly, a secret political police, shortages of even basic goods, and that, to add insult to injury, did not allow the vast majority of its own people to leave that hellhole behind when they so desired. It was such a nice country that it went to great lenghts to keep its own people from leaving. A regime so aware of its own monstrous nature that it could not allow its people to know the truth; the truth was illegal in the USSR. A regime so insecure that it considered allowing its people to listen to the Beatles an existential threat. No, the USSR was a cancer (to use the word of Sakharov), and free men everywhere celebrate its demise.

 

[red_elk]

You aren't going to explain where I went wrong because everything I wrote is true.

Because I don't want to argue against arrogant ignorance.

A nice country with vast censorship, no freedom of speech or assembly, a secret political police, shortages of even basic goods, and that, to add insult to injury, did not allow the vast majority of its own people to leave that hellhole behind when they so desired. It was such a nice country that it went to great lenghts to keep its own people from leaving. A regime so aware of its own monstrous nature that it could not allow its people to know the truth; the truth was illegal in the USSR. A regime so insecure that it considered allowing its people to listen to the Beatles an existential threat. No, the USSR was a cancer (to use the word of Sakharov), and free men everywhere celebrate its demise.

Nice tirade, but wrong again.
If you are interested in Soviet history, ask Cheezy the Wiz (who knows it much better than you) or me, because I have first hand experience of living in that country. No need to rant your fantasies here.

 

[red_elk]

A regime so insecure that it considered allowing its people to listen to the Beatles an existential threat. No, the USSR was a cancer...

Oh, sorry, I missed this brilliant sentence.
Records of this "existential threat" were selling in USSR since 1967:

Every day new discoveries, isn't it?

 

[luiz]

Because I don't want to argue against arrogant ignorance.

No, it's because you can't prove me wrong. When you think you can (like the Beatles, see below), you do it. When you don't it's because you can't.

This is how you respond. I say life in the 40's USSR was an Orwellian nightmare, using as a clear example people being sent to death because of private letters. You say the 30's were worse. Well, if I had used the 30's you'd call me ignorant because my example was about the 40's.

Nice tirade, but wrong again.
If you are interested in Soviet history, ask Cheezy the Wiz (who knows it much better than you) or me, because I have first hand experience of living in that country. No need to rant your fantasies here.

Nope, there are things called books, the internet, etc. You both are thoroughly unreliable sources.

Oh, sorry, I missed this brilliant sentence.
Records of this "existential threat" were selling in USSR since 1967:

Every day new discoveries, isn't it?

Oh boy, you sure think you got me, eh?

Nope, some silly love songs were allowed but much of their material was censored. Many songs were banned, and the records did not sell at virtually any store. Of course, some people did manage to get them, just like people manage to get all sorts of illegal stuff everywhere.

Some times it bordered the absurd. Paul McCartney's Band on the Run was sold, but the title track was censored

Talk about insecurity in the Workers' Paradise!

So if you were trying to imply that the Beatles were not cesored, even though you know damn well they were, try again.

 

[red_elk]

Oh boy, you sure think you got me, eh?

Relax dude, I'm glad I made you read at least something about USSR.
But be careful, if you'll post something as funny as this "existential threat" and "cancer" again, I'll be happy to point that out

 

[Antilogic]

This is how you respond. I say life in the 40's USSR was an Orwellian nightmare, using as a clear example people being sent to death because of private letters. You say the 30's were worse. Well, if I had used the 30's you'd call me ignorant because my example was about the 40's.


Nope, there are things called books, the internet, etc. You both are thoroughly unreliable sources.

Wasn't this thread, at some point, comparing the two nations in the 1970s?

Secondly, not all books and internet sites are equals.

 

[red_elk]

More pictures from 60s-80s:

Spoiler :

 

[Patroklos]

I here a Jew smiled once at Auchwitz, obviously it was an awesome place. African slaves used to sing while they worked. SING!

 

[luiz]

Relax dude, I'm glad I made you read at least something about USSR.
But be careful, if you'll post something as funny as this "existential threat" and "cancer" again, I'll be happy to point that out

Existential threat was my humourous way to describe the USSR's censoring of rock songs.

As for "cancer", that was Sakharov's definition that I merely borrowed. Take your beef with him.

Wasn't this thread, at some point, comparing the two nations in the 1970s?

Secondly, not all books and internet sites are equals.

Eh, isn't that comparisson what I've been doing all along?

And I know there better and worse books. I've read plenty of both. Want recommendations or something?

 

[W|M]

I here a Jew smiled once at Auchwitz, obviously it was an awesome place. African slaves used to sing while they worked. SING!

I see no minorities being killed/enslaved in those pictures.

 

[Patroklos]

Zee Germans had pictures of Auchwitz without those things also.

 

[luiz]

I see no minorities being killed/enslaved in those pictures.

His point is that you can hand pick pictures to make any regime look good, or "normal". We could post hundreds of pictures of happy kids and pretty ladies in Nazi Germany or apartheid South Africa. What would that prove, or even illustrate?

 

[red_elk]

I see no minorities being killed/enslaved in those pictures.

But you should see slaves, suffering under monstrous, inhuman regime...

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

I'm with Patroklos on this one . In fact it's quite bizarre to have a bunch of photos of smiling citizens of the USSR presented as legitimate argument for the pros of the workers paradise . Its almost like presenting a Coke commercial as proof for how everything is dandy in The USA ???

 

[Traitorfish]

I'm not sure that I follow the logic of "Source X is insufficient proof for Assertion Y, therefore every cartoonish presupposition we hold on the matter is and must be true". There's a certain leap in the middle that just doesn't seem right.

 

[luiz]

I don't see anyone suffering in the pics below either:

Spoiler :

Did I just prove anything?

 

[red_elk]

I'm with Patroklos on this one . In fact it's quite bizarre to have a bunch of photos of smiling citizens of the USSR presented as legitimate argument for the pros of the workers paradise . Its almost like presenting a Coke commercial as proof for how everything is dandy in The USA ???

"Presented as a legitimate argument" and "workers paradise" are your words.
I posted these pictures simply to illustrate how daily life in the USSR looked like - of course you would see much more happy faces than different unpleasant stuff, just because such things are being photographed more often.

Those people who are interested, will simply look, enjoy and notice interesting things, others will search parallels with Auschwitz and African slaves.