The Cold War...

[Cheezy the Wiz]

You are aware that homosexuality was considered a criminal offense in USSR?

And horridly so.

They were, at least, free to leave. Unlike citizens of USSR.

USSR citizens were free to leave, just not all exit visas were approved, if you were something of an enemy of the state or under suspicion for something. Same thing can happen in the USA today.

No, not in theory. In theory and practice to likes of the Ukranians, Georgians, and Uzbeks the Soviets were pretty much genocidal. Then there are the Jews...

Please, tell us what happened to the Jews in the state founded by a bunch of Jews.

And I'm curious to hear about these Uzbek genocides.

As for Georgia, if you knew your history you would know how strongly Lenin and Trotsky came down on Stalin, Beria, and Ordzhonikidze for their harshness in Georgia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor#Genocide_question

Ah, my favorite topic of slander. Strange that its proponents always ignore the famine going on in the rest of the USSR as well, which Red Elk already alluded to. More Russians died than Ukrainians in that drought, while food stores were rushed into the Ukraine from elsewhere.

In the US at the time it was something on the order of 60-70% of the population. Except for small numbers, it was actually a very good time to be in the US. And even for the blacks, it was one of the best times to be in the country.

I'd like to see data on that.

 

[Antilogic]

In 1972, most Americans were indeed White. And many were middle-class or aspired to it. But your implied criticism is valid. To a minority it wasn't quite so good. That's why I specifically spelled out White middle class.

While I still follow this thread with interest, I don't think I made any claim otherwise. I just think they had really bad music.

 

[Cutlass]

While I still follow this thread with interest, I don't think I made any claim otherwise. I just think they had really bad music.

Your taste in music is now highly suspect......

 

[Antilogic]

Your taste in music is now highly suspect......

Believe it or not, I don't listen to much music. When I do, it's usually classical music, along with some instrumental stuff (mostly solo piano). I don't like too many songs with lyrics because I think most people are crappy singers.

Rarely, I add some movie or miniseries soundtracks that I enjoy to the playlist.

 

[Cutlass]

Believe it or not, I don't listen to much music. When I do, it's usually classical music, along with some instrumental stuff (mostly solo piano). I don't like too many songs with lyrics because I think most people are crappy singers.

Rarely, I add some movie or miniseries soundtracks that I enjoy to the playlist.

I won't claim to be someone with great knowledge of music. The thing about the 60s and 70s in the US and UK is that the music scene was wide open. Anything was possible. Anything was new. Anyone could try. There was more room for brilliance to rise to the top than any other time.

It may not be to your taste, but it was a Golden Age in music.

 

[madviking]

madviking's Honduran Banana Plantation has a nice ring to it.

 

[Yeekim]

Outside of the famines in Ukraine in 32-33 and occasional targeted deportations - not to reduce the magnitude of these crimes - Soviet treatment of these nationalities simply cannot be characterized in blanket terms as genocidal. Better point to the Crimean Tatars or Chechens who were simply removed in total from the Crimea and Chechnya, deportation of Volga and Baltic Germans, or Poles deported from Byelarus SSR after the war, etc. etc. The NKVD, especially in the Stalin era, were ruthless, murderous, any number of a slew of condemnations, but to throw around blanket terms like you have without providing nuance or historical context simply brutalizes the experiences of these people.

Agreed.

USSR citizens were free to leave, just not all exit visas were approved, if you were something of an enemy of the state or under suspicion for something. Same thing can happen in the USA today.

USA has exit visas?

 

[luiz]

And horridly so.



USSR citizens were free to leave, just not all exit visas were approved, if you were something of an enemy of the state or under suspicion for something. Same thing can happen in the USA today.



Please, tell us what happened to the Jews in the state founded by a bunch of Jews.

And I'm curious to hear about these Uzbek genocides.

As for Georgia, if you knew your history you would know how strongly Lenin and Trotsky came down on Stalin, Beria, and Ordzhonikidze for their harshness in Georgia.



Ah, my favorite topic of slander. Strange that its proponents always ignore the famine going on in the rest of the USSR as well, which Red Elk already alluded to. More Russians died than Ukrainians in that drought, while food stores were rushed into the Ukraine from elsewhere.



I'd like to see data on that.

You said in another thread that commies should refrain from defending the indefensible USSR, but here you're doing it.

The USSR can't even be compared to the US in terms of basic liberties. Not in the 70's, not in the 60's, not ever.

You said you could buy any good you want. Well, how about any books you want? How about watching any movies or listening to any album? Oh that's right, you couldn't because the USSR had brutal censorship. How does that compare with the US?

And how you compare the emigration policies of the USSR and the USA with a straight face? You know as well as I about the nefarious "exist visas", which also exist in Cuba and China and other socialist paradises. How is that comparable to the US?

 

[Traitorfish]

Why does any and all commentary on the USSR have to be filtered through "Meanwhile, in the United States"? You don't get that with any other aspect in history, nobody ever says "Actually, the Spanish Inquisition wasn't so bad as is commonly believed" to be told "But they wouldn't do it in America!". It's bizarre.

 

[luiz]

Why does any and all commentary on the USSR have to be filtered through "Meanwhile, in the United States"? You don't get that with any other aspect in history, nobody ever says "Actually, the Spanish Inquisition wasn't so bad as is commonly believed" to be told "But they wouldn't do it in America!". It's bizarre.

It's more of the opposite, though. The traditional story is like this:

Random person:
"In the USSR there is no freedom of speech, no freedom of assembly, no freedom of movement, no free elections, there is a brutal secret police, living conditions are crappy, etc etc etc."

Random commie
"Well yeah? In the US they're lynching negroes!!"

The end.

 

[Traitorfish]

That's nice, but I don't see what it has to do with what Cheezy actually said...?

 

[luiz]

That's nice, but I don't see what it has to do with what Cheezy actually said...?

My answer to Cheezy is on my post answering Cheezy. That was my answer to you.

 

[Traitorfish]

And my comment was in reference to your reply to Cheezy.

 

[Richard Cribb]

And I think random person might be connected in some way to Random House.
To the opening question; a toss between Sweden and East Germany

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

You said in another thread that commies should refrain from defending the indefensible USSR, but here you're doing it.

That's not what I said, I said that we shouldn't defend it so reflexively. All I've said in this thread is that in 1972 I would have rather lived in the USSR than the USA. That's not really a defense; I listed facts about the USSR which led me to my decision, and even put a bit of criticism into it as well. So nice try.

The USSR can't even be compared to the US in terms of basic liberties. Not in the 70's, not in the 60's, not ever.

One of our Supreme Court Justices disagrees.

You said you could buy any good you want. Well, how about any books you want? How about watching any movies or listening to any album? Oh that's right, you couldn't because the USSR had brutal censorship. How does that compare with the US?

Brutal censorship, or just some censorship? You'd be surprised what people got away with saying and writing, I think.

It's funny how you all characterize communist nations as being exactly like North Korea is and worse, or the darkest days of Stalinism: this sort of ultra-Orwellian horror society. I mean, I get that it's an essential part of your world view, but it's just not grounded in reality.

And finally, you should note that just because I said something wasn't that bad that I was not also saying that it was good. Obviously I dislike censorship (well I guess I shouldn't say obviously, since the adage that common sense isn't common is the first thing that comes to mind when dealing with your ilk), repression of homosexuality, nomenklatura, product shortages, and shoddy workmanship, but I shouldn't have to state all of that every time I say something remotely positive about the USSR, as if I were absolving myself of some horrible sin.

As TF pointed out, no one must do this for any other thing, yet if we don't then we are assumed to be starry-eyed M-L dull-mouthers.

And how you compare the emigration policies of the USSR and the USA with a straight face? You know as well as I about the nefarious "exist visas", which also exist in Cuba and China and other socialist paradises. How is that comparable to the US?

I have never referred to the USSR as a paradise. All I said is that it was better for the average person in 1972 than it was in the USA.

USA has exit visas?

Not exit visas, I misspoke, but your departure from the country can be barred, as can your entry, if you are "suspicious."

It's more of the opposite, though. The traditional story is like this:

Random person:
"In the USSR there is no freedom of speech, no freedom of assembly, no freedom of movement, no free elections, there is a brutal secret police, living conditions are crappy, etc etc etc."

Random commie
"Well yeah? In the US they're lynching negroes!!"

The end.

If we do that, it's because the accusers of Soviet crimes are often completely ignorant of identical or similar American ones, or at least pretend to be when pointing the finger at the communists.

Besides, if we wanted to be serious in our rebuttals, we wouldn't use negro-lynching to point out the hypocrisy of it, but the Smith Act and the McCarran Act and the Orwell List.

Lastly, such a rebuttal does not constitute abrogation of the accused party's wrongdoings, it merely contextualizes them. It wasn't just us, it was you also.

 

[Quackers]

If you watch that Scalia video he says, yes the SU constitution is the most progressive, liberal document in human history and it's superior to the US Bill of Rights! However, the state never enforced those liberties so these supposed "freedoms" are worthless.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

If you watch that Scalia video he says, yes the SU constitution is the most progressive, liberal documents in human history and it's superior to the US Bill of Rights! However, the state never enforced those liberties so these supposed "freedoms" are worthless.

I'm sorry, did you think I was taking that reply seriously? It seems cheeking the tongue is an art lost on the younger generation.

 

[Quackers]

Yes I thought you were being serious. Unsurprisingly, it's difficult to spot such tongue in cheek "humor" through an internet forum, then again your response lacks any humor.
..and whats worst someone could of read that and started believing such nonsense. Spreading rumors and false information like that, for shame.

 

[warpus]

USSR citizens were free to leave, just not all exit visas were approved, if you were something of an enemy of the state or under suspicion for something. Same thing can happen in the USA today.

Polish citizens were "allowed" to leave too, provided they had a family that the state would be sure that they would return to after the vacation or trip was complete.

But you know what? It took a couple years to file the necessary paperwork to be able to travel. It was incredibly restrictive.

Maybe the soviets had it better than us Poles, but it is really really silly and not to mention disingenuous to compare something like that to the freedom of movement Americans enjoy.

 

[luiz]

That's not what I said, I said that we shouldn't defend it so reflexively. All I've said in this thread is that in 1972 I would have rather lived in the USSR than the USA. That's not really a defense; I listed facts about the USSR which led me to my decision, and even put a bit of criticism into it as well. So nice try.

You were relativizing the problems and evils of the USSR by comparing them to minor ones at the USA. Fact is there was nothing like the product shortages, the censorship, the exit visas, the political police, etc., going on in the States.

Brutal censorship, or just some censorship? You'd be surprised what people got away with saying and writing, I think.

Brutal censorship. In the days of Stalin you could get sent to your death in Gulag because of a joke written on a personal letter. This sort of horror is indeed ultra-Orwellian and makes Stalin's USSR one of the worst places in human history.

Of course, by the 70's things were much better. But there was still a ridiculous amount of censorship. As I said, you couldn't buy whatever books, see whatever films or listen to whatever albums you desired. How is that not a monstrosity?

It's funny how you all characterize communist nations as being exactly like North Korea is and worse, or the darkest days of Stalinism: this sort of ultra-Orwellian horror society. I mean, I get that it's an essential part of your world view, but it's just not grounded in reality.

Um, no. I understand the 70's USSR or modern Cuba are no North Korea or 40's USSR. But they still sucked.

You see, I don't like being told what books I can or cannot read. I don't like being sentenced to jail for political opinions. I don't like having to submit myself to a freakin' internal visa to be able to leave my freakin' home country. Crazy me. All those things are true for the 70's USSR and modern Cuba.

And finally, you should note that just because I said something wasn't that bad that I was not also saying that it was good. Obviously I dislike censorship (well I guess I shouldn't say obviously, since the adage that common sense isn't common is the first thing that comes to mind when dealing with your ilk), repression of homosexuality, nomenklatura, product shortages, and shoddy workmanship, but I shouldn't have to state all of that every time I say something remotely positive about the USSR, as if I were absolving myself of some horrible sin.

OK, so exit visas, widespread censorship, no free elections, secret political police, no freedom of speech, etc., all those things are "not so bad"?

They are awful from where I'm standing. And also from where 95% of humanity is standing, given electoral results anyway.

I have never referred to the USSR as a paradise. All I said is that it was better for the average person in 1972 than it was in the USA.

But it was much, much worse. Incomparably worse and demonstrably so.

Not exit visas, I misspoke, but your departure from the country can be barred, as can your entry, if you are "suspicious."

And that really is comparable to what they did in the USSR and do in Cuba???

If we do that, it's because the accusers of Soviet crimes are often completely ignorant of identical or similar American ones, or at least pretend to be when pointing the finger at the communists.

Besides, if we wanted to be serious in our rebuttals, we wouldn't use negro-lynching to point out the hypocrisy of it, but the Smith Act and the McCarran Act and the Orwell List.

Lastly, such a rebuttal does not constitute abrogation of the accused party's wrongdoings, it merely contextualizes them. It wasn't just us, it was you also.

The thing is, there are no identical American crimes.

The US did many screwed up and evil things, like all major powers in history, but there is no comparison with the USSR which was evil to its core.