The Definitive U.S. 2nd Amendment Debate Thread

Che Guava

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Stephen Chapman said:
The full text of the[the second amendment] is: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." In its last significant Second Amendment case, in 1939, the court didn't exactly say there was no individual right. Instead, it said the firearm at issue, a sawed-off shotgun, would not be of use to someone serving in a militia. The question of an individual right was left unresolved.



Ok folks, my curiosity on gun controlled, piqued by a certain other thread currently getting some attention, has led me to create a thread specifically charged with answering the questions:

(1) What was the motivation behind introducing the Second Amendment?

(2) Is the U.S. Second amendment (the right to bear arms) outdated?

(3) What would be the likely consequences of removing said amendment form the Bill of Rights?


[EDIT: One question I forgot: (4) If you do support the second amendment, do you do so to ensure the existance of militias, for personal protection of self and property, or both?]

Although there have been more than a few threads on this topic in the past, with the recent events in the U.S. considering the District of Columbia, I think another look at the issue is timely.

For those looking to get a look at the issues curently at hand, this article outlines the ongoing debate pretty well (albeit not without bias); other sources are certainly welcome:

Spoiler :
Signs of life stir in 2nd Amendment


For nearly 70 years, the Second Amendment has been the Jimmy Hoffa of constitutional provisions -- missing, its whereabouts unknown, and presumed dead. The right to keep and bear arms, though treasured by many Americans, was a complete stranger to the Supreme Court. But recently, a federal appeals court did something no federal court had ever done before: It struck down a gun-control law as a violation of the Second Amendment.

The District of Columbia statute in question is one of the most stringent in the country. It bans the ownership of handguns except those registered before 1976, and it requires rifles or shotguns to be not only registered but kept unloaded and equipped with a trigger lock. Such tight restrictions, the appeals court said, can't be reconciled with the Bill of Rights.

The decision does not prove that the Second Amendment is alive and well. But it does mean that, finally, we are likely to get an answer from the Supreme Court on a question that has generated endless debate: Is the Second Amendment a meaningless anachronism, or a live guarantee? The court will be confronting the issue at a time when legal scholarship is increasingly inclined to say there is indeed a right to keep and bear arms.

The full text of the provision is: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." In its last significant Second Amendment case, in 1939, the court didn't exactly say there was no individual right. Instead, it said the firearm at issue, a sawed-off shotgun, would not be of use to someone serving in a militia. The question of an individual right was left unresolved.

The amendment is a puzzle because of those two separate clauses, one about militias and one about gun rights. Gun-control supporters generally read the first to nullify the second, while gun-control opponents do just the opposite. And trying to determine what the framers meant is hard because they barely discussed the right and what it might entail.

Second Amendment skeptics think any right is a collective one related to militias that no longer exist. But just because the colonial Minutemen have vanished doesn't mean they took the rest of the Second Amendment with them. It's hard to know exactly what the Second Amendment means by a right to keep and bear arms, but it must mean something.

Even some liberal constitutional experts now agree that gun ownership enjoys constitutional protection. The most notable is Harvard law professor Laurence Tribe, who once subscribed to the collective-rights theory. The amendment, he writes, recognizes "a right (admittedly of uncertain scope) on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in defense of themselves and their homes." The appeals court agreed, striking down D.C.'s prohibition of handguns in the home, as well as regulations on other guns.

It would be a stunning turnabout if the Supreme Court adopts that view. It would remove some of the most extreme laws from the books -- such as the virtually total ban on handguns in Chicago and some suburban communities. Gun-rights advocates would feel sweet vindication.

But there is consolation for the other side as well. The appeals court made clear that a host of other limits on firearms possession are constitutionally permissible. States, it said, could forbid the carrying of concealed handguns, require registration of firearms and mandate training for gun owners.

So if this decision is upheld, it will not change our treatment of guns very much. Complete bans would be off-limits, but they are already rarer than white buffaloes. Most other gun-control laws would remain on the books, and anti-gun groups would be free to press for additional ones.

The only obstacle would be the one that has stymied them in the past: insufficient public support. It wasn't the constitutional right to keep and bear arms that induced Congress to let the federal ban on "assault weapons" expire, or that persuaded 40 states to allow the carrying of concealed handguns. Those choices were the product of sentiment among citizens and legislators who see most restrictions on firearms as futile at best and dangerous at worst.

The bad news for gun-control advocates is that the Supreme Court may adopt an expansive view of the Second Amendment. The worst news is that's the least of their troubles.


ok, let's keep the debate clean and remember that all opinions (including non-american ones ;) ) are welcome!
 
(1) What was the motivation behind introducing the Second Amendment?
Ensuring that private citizens could own guns. They didn't want a government, state or federal being able to disarm it's people and tyrannize them.

(2) Is the U.S. Second amendment (the right to bear arms) outdated?
No.

(3) What would be the likely consequences of removing said amendment form the Bill of Rights?
It couldn't be done. Hypothetically, though, there would probably be some more restrictive gun control is more liberal places, and pretty much the same level of control in more conservative places. On the whole, though, there would be more restriction.
 
1) so people could defend themselves.

2) no

2) People would not be able to defend themselves.


Untill the gov. and police can protect everyone at every moment with 100% crime elimenated and all the worlds nations are at 100% peace I have the right to defend my self. So untill all humans and carnivorus animals are wiped out there is a threat and I will protect my self by any and all means.
 
Thanks for breaking the ice :)

Just a question: given the size and capabilities of the goverment today, does allowing citiztns to keep personal arms really protect them against tyranny?
 
Taking one of the rights expressly mentioned in the bill of rights would be impossible. It would be seen as a step towards tyranny, as "who knows what right will be taken away next" mentality would sweep the nation.

I personally don't see why people would want to keep other people from having guns. It doesn't reduce crime, you can easily kill someone or hold them up with a number of different weapons. The only thing I think should be regulated to any degree would be the possession of military-style weapons, which are not useful or necessary in any legal purpose.
 
(1) What was the motivation behind introducing the Second Amendment?
A: wasnt it for defense against an attack by england?

(2) Is the U.S. Second amendment (the right to bear arms) outdated?
A: yes. the UK isn't exactly an imminent threat to the US.

(3) What would be the likely consequences of removing said amendment form the Bill of Rights?
A: less shootings.
 
added a question...
 
Thanks for breaking the ice :)

Just a question: given the size and capabilities of the goverment today, does allowing citiztns to keep personal arms really protect them against tyranny?
You mean is John Smith really going to be able to fend off an Abram's tank with his thirty ought six if the government really tries to kill him? Not in an individual sense - no matter how many guns you have, if the government wants to kill you you aren't going to be able to stop them by yourself. But collectively, perhaps so. It's one thing to stop one, or ten people with guns. It's another to stop 10 million, even with modern day equipment. One person hiding in his basement with a handgun isn't going to keep the government from becoming tyrannical; 10 million very well could.

EDIT:
Question 4:
(4) If you do support the second amendment, do you do so to ensure the existance of militias, for personal protection of self and property, or both?]
Both. Individuals should be allowed to own guns to protect themselves and their property, and state's should be allowed to form independent militias, entirely outside of the chain of command that exists currently with the National Guard. Meaning if the sovereign state of Virginia decides it wants 1,000 armed men to be able to use for security inside of Virginia, without the federal government being able to issue orders to that group, they should be able to do so. For the record, militia's like that do exist, but typically they are self armed, and have only a few hundred people in them per state. (If that)
 
I forget who said it, but the Second Amendment is there in case someone forgets the First. (Or tries to do one of a host of other things.)

As a hacker, I also like guns, in the general category of "machinery that I can do lots of nifty things with, but stupid people are trying to take them away from me because somebody else abused them". Hey, I object to being suspected that way.
 
Thanks for breaking the ice :)

Just a question: given the size and capabilities of the goverment today, does allowing citiztns to keep personal arms really protect them against tyranny?

Yes it does. An unarmed population can not fight back so the feds have nothing to worry about. An armed population can fight back. Ofcourse in the US if a fed vs pop war broke out there would be a split in the military and law enforcement (fed/state/county/city). But there are more armed civilians then armed gov.
 
Yes it does. An unarmed population can not fight back so the feds have nothing to worry about. An armed population can fight back. Ofcourse in the US if a fed vs pop war broke out there would be a split in the military and law enforcement (fed/state/county/city). But there are more armed civilians then armed gov.

What about the double-edged nature of an armed populace. For instance, what happens in a popular opinion, say the repression of a minority, is put into action by a well-armed militia that outnumber said minority?

What I mean to say is how can you be sure of the intentions of the populace?
 
(1) What was the motivation behind introducing the Second Amendment?

The insurance that an authoritative government would not be able to subjugate the people and that the states could defend themselves from an attack by a foreign power. Also, I believe but cannot prove that it was also made as a guarantee of the right of an individual to carry and defend himself with a gun.

(2) Is the U.S. Second amendment (the right to bear arms) outdated?

No.

(3) What would be the likely consequences of removing said amendment form the Bill of Rights?[/B]

Guns would likely start to get banned and severely restricted.

(4) If you do support the second amendment, do you do so to ensure the existance of militias, for personal protection of self and property, or both

I support the use of guns for self-defense and sport.

As a summary of my belief on the Second Amendment, I believe that it does not immediately address the issue of individual rights, but that people should still be allowed to carry guns. I wouldn't be adverse though to allowing the individual states determining for themselves just what to do.
 
say you have a revolution against the suddenly tyrannical government, what happens if you get a Robespierre type leader?
 
(1) What was the motivation behind introducing the Second Amendment?

British attempts to disarm colonists during the revolution.

(2) Is the U.S. Second amendment (the right to bear arms) outdated?

No. Not according to this federal appeals court.

http://tailrank.com/1485667/Appeals-Court-Overturns-D-C-Gun-Ban

(3) What would be the likely consequences of removing said amendment form the Bill of Rights?

Besides the resulting violence between the people and government: If the government can one away, then they can and will take them all away.
 
As an outsider to the gun discussion, I have never been able to understand why Americans seem so afraid of the goverment suddenly turning into a tyranny and why they always want to "defend" themselves against criminals (by which I mean that they take action instead of the police). Europeans have grown up in a mostly gun-free culture, and it's my impression that most Europeans support the ban on guns.

I think I already have an idea why it is like this, but I would love to hear other peoples thoughts on this difference between the US and Europe.
 
Interesting to see that at least half the Americans responding to these questions haven't been properly educated as to the origins of the 2nd amendment!.. or you're just ignoring the real reasons for its introduction ;)

wiki said:
In 1786, a decade after the Declaration of Independence was signed, the United States existed as a loose national government under the Articles of Confederation. This confederation was perceived to have several weaknesses, among which was the inability to mount a Federal military response to an armed uprising in western Massachusetts known as Shays' Rebellion.

In 1786, to address these weaknesses, the Philadelphia Convention was convened with the charter of amending the Articles.

The origin of the Second Amendment also occurred in context of an ongoing debate about "the people" fighting governmental tyranny, (as described by Antifederalists); or the risk of mob rule of "the people", (as described by the Federalists).

So, you see, the 2nd amendment was not introduced as some sort of universal right. It was introduced for very specific reasons that are quite obviously no longer applicable today.
 
Interesting to see that at least half the Americans responding to these questions haven't been properly educated as to the origins of the 2nd amendment!.. or you're just ignoring the real reasons for its introduction ;)



So, you see, the 2nd amendment was not introduced as some sort of universal right. It was introduced for very specific reasons that are quite obviously no longer applicable today.

Its not about the original reason though, if theres a different reason for it today by all means keep it.

And the constitution has been changed tons of times over the 231 years since the founding of our country.
 
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