The Essence of the Left

[IncessantMace]

Fair enough, for instance the left in the USA is at best center right in Germany (I use that as my example as I was born there and my dad is German) while the center right in Germany would be viewed as socialists/communists here, or at least by some people on the right but perspective always plays a roll in what political spectrum is defined to be be by an individual.

 

[luiz]

While it's true that on a lot of issues the "left" in the US is to the "right" of that in Europe, I think this tends to be overstated a bit and is not universally true. On some matters they are much more extreme here, like identity politics (and also economic stuff like rent controls).

 

[IncessantMace]

My dad tends to equate some of the rights policies/beliefs here to nazism, sometimes i have to agree with him...

 

[warpus]

Heck, the American left would be a right of centre or centrist party here in Canada... at least as far as the Democrats go, anyway. Our conservative party is less conservative than them.

I would imagine that this effect is even more exterme in the case of Germany.

 

[Tahuti]

Heck, the American left would be a right of centre or centrist party here in Canada... at least as far as the Democrats go, anyway. Our conservative party is less conservative than them.

I would imagine that this effect is even more exterme in the case of Germany.

You forget that Americans, Canadians and Anglo-Saxons in general are way more Left-Wing than Continental Europeans on issues like multiculturalism, race and immigration. Even the most Right-Wing Republicans are still to the Left of the European Left on immigration.

 

[luiz]

Heck, the American left would be a right of centre or centrist party here in Canada... at least as far as the Democrats go, anyway. Our conservative party is less conservative than them.

I would imagine that this effect is even more exterme in the case of Germany.

That's not true. In Canada for example the Conservatives are all for the expansion of the Keystone Pipeline while in the US the Democrats keep blocking it.

The Democrats are to the left of the Canadian Conservatives on most issues I can think of.

 

[luiz]

You forget that Americans, Canadians and Anglo-Saxons in general are way more Left-Wing than Continental European on issues like multiculturalism, race and immigration. Even the most Right-Wing Republicans are still to the Left of the European Left on immigration.

Yeah that too. In Europe there are major parties openly talking of offering incentives for legal immigrants and their families to leave the country. In the US even policies to restrict illegal immigration are fairly controversial, and no Tea Party wingnut would even suggest trying to kick out the legal immigrants.

This whole "the US is to the far-right of Europe" thing is not only a boring cliché, it's also false.

 

[IncessantMace]

Don't give them any ideas, otherwise I'd be kicked out...

 

[warpus]

That's not true. In Canada for example the Conservatives are all for the expansion of the Keystone Pipeline while in the US the Democrats keep blocking it.

So they disagree on a pipeline, what does that have to do with their place on the left-right liberal-conservative axis?

You forget that Americans, Canadians and Anglo-Saxons in general are way more Left-Wing than Continental Europeans on issues like multiculturalism, race and immigration. Even the most Right-Wing Republicans are still to the Left of the European Left on immigration.

Of course you'll always find counterexamples. As a whole, they're far more "to the left" than their American counterparts.

 

[luiz]

So they disagree on a pipeline, what does that have to do with their place on the left-right liberal-conservative axis?

Well environmentalism is usually a leftist position. In the US Republicans want the pipeline while Democrats don't. So the Canadian Conservatives are closer to the Republicans on this issue.

But that's not all. Harper's platform is well to the right of that of most Democrats in lots of issues.

 

[warpus]

Well environmentalism is usually a leftist position. In the US Republicans want the pipeline while Democrats don't. So the Canadian Conservatives are closer to the Republicans on this issue.

But that's not all. Harper's platform is well to the right of that of most Democrats in lots of issues.

Harper has been trying to copy Republican party tactics for the last couple years, that's true. It's sort of backfiring on him, he isn't doing so great in the polls.

 

[Old Hippy]

There were no soviet states in 1900, yet I said that socialism was a serious force back then.

Those things are not what I understand as socialism. Socialism to me means to fundamentally alter the economic system, it means an alternative to free-market capitalism as we know it. Not - as you apparently understand it - welfare schemes, public services and a bit of regulation and... some unions. Perhaps such things share fundamental values with socialism, values which are opposed to the values associated with free-market capitalism. Perhaps that makes them socialism-themed or something. But socialism itself already has a meaning. Should that original meaning be no longer necessary (other then so understand the past where it still was in use) it would only substantiate the notion that socialism was dead.

edit: Interestingly, if we look at how the meaning of socialism shifted so radically we arrive at the same basic reasoning Snorrious embraces.
In the USA certain measures have been branded as socialism out of the vague fear that such measures will lead the way to some kind of authoritarian socialist hell hole. The idea is that if you do certain things which are 'socialism-themed', which are opposed to the values of free-market capitalism, you will have to end up in said hell hole on the long run.
Snorrious argues pretty much the same thing, just with a focus on legal and social equality.

just questioning your basic assumtion about the values of free-market capitalism
what are the values of free market capitalism, surely they would involve no regulation and the free movement of people as the market decides, so open borders,

socialists actually don't think that capitalism has values, so it would be hard to be opposed to them, it is just a mechanism, if it had values it would embrace the free movement of cheap labour coming in from across the borders... it would be very multicultural
the problem is that too many people define socialism and the left as things that are opposed to free market capitalism, but they still have laws that affect people, fair enough, but they should be liable too the same laws, that is a leftist view,so equall rights are prominent
they then tag on things like property rights and say the left oppose them , no the left thinks every one should have the right to a roof over their heads...

as capitalism has no values, and both left and right already make laws and regulations to manage it so it can benefit people, the only debate is should it benefit the lowest paid people as well, so they can have families (with the much alluded to values of) or should it mainly benefit a group who already have benefited from it, and wish to maintain their lead in this...

 

[Evie]

Heck, the American left would be a right of centre or centrist party here in Canada... at least as far as the Democrats go, anyway. Our conservative party is less conservative than them.

I would imagine that this effect is even more exterme in the case of Germany.

While there is some truth to what you say, a lot of the difference come more down to demographics and institutional differences than any kind of actual cultural difference. Parties appeal to who they need to appeal to (our conservatives aren't lacking in anti-abortion anti-gays anti-immigrations tea party wannabes; they just know that to win an election they need to keep them on a very tight leash...the conservatives rank-and-file are complaining about that one, actually).

And the reason that going on these topic is political suicide is, by and large, demographic. When four big multicultural cities with large gay neighborhood (Montreal-Ottawa-Vancouver-Toronto) account for 40% of the population in your country, some topics stop being winning topic in the political arena.

The fact that parties in Canada are far more top-down rather than bottom-up, and the lack of gerrymandering also result in a completely different balance between the importance of primaries and general elections. The primaries (and the mid-term elections) also create lots of scenarios in the US for "less important" elections, which tend to draw demographics elements that tend toward conservatism. Whereas in Canada all elections (outside special elections in one speciic ridings) are general elections, drawing the same demographics.

There are some genuine difference in the left-right axis in Canada (most notably the matter of healthcare), but a lot of the difference is more a matter of political strategies.

 

[Bootstoots]

Heck, the American left would be a right of centre or centrist party here in Canada... at least as far as the Democrats go, anyway. Our conservative party is less conservative than them.

I would imagine that this effect is even more exterme in the case of Germany.

That's commonly said about the Conservatives, but I from what (relatively little) I know about Canadian politics, I can't think this is the case anymore. There are a very few issues (e.g. healthcare) on which the Conservatives would be recognized as left of the Democrats, but even here I suspect the main reason is that attempting to peel back healthcare benefits would be too unpopular. If for some reason Canada had also not gotten around to creating a universal health care system in the 1940s-1960s, I doubt modern Conservatives would find themselves supporting it. Besides programs that they largely support because it would be politically suicidal not to, is there any substantial way their positions are left of the Democrats?

Not that the Democrats are a left-wing party at all; their leadership is approximately pro-establishment center-right so far as I can determine. They're not much different from the Republicans on foreign policy or civil liberties, and many of the Tea Party (insane economic views notwithstanding) have anti-interventionist stances that were formerly associated mostly with the leftmost part of the Democratic Party.

 

[plarq]

That's commonly said about the Conservatives, but I from what (relatively little) I know about Canadian politics, I can't think this is the case anymore. There are a very few issues (e.g. healthcare) on which the Conservatives would be recognized as left of the Democrats, but even here I suspect the main reason is that attempting to peel back healthcare benefits would be too unpopular. If for some reason Canada had also not gotten around to creating a universal health care system in the 1940s-1960s, I doubt modern Conservatives would find themselves supporting it. Besides programs that they largely support because it would be politically suicidal not to, is there any substantial way their positions are left of the Democrats?

In other words, a left wing project (universal healthcare) have been irrevocably implemented, that no one have the political power to object. This is some kind of permanent movement of political baseline.

 

[Bootstoots]

On that one issue, the Canadian baseline did move in a direction we'd call left of the American one. I don't know if that has any broader implications though.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

@Graffito
You give me a headache.

socialists actually don't think that capitalism has values, so it would be hard to be opposed to them

While capitalism itself may have no values, people who are in favor of capitalism may do so for values.

if it had values it would embrace the free movement of cheap labour coming in from across the borders...

People are known to embrace conflicting values.

the problem is that too many people define socialism and the left as things that are opposed to free market capitalism

It certainly is nonsense to define the left as being opposed to free market capitalism. We can agree on that. And if you understand socialism in this extremely general sense as brennan does, nor is socialism actually opposed to free market capitalism. But as said, I have a more narrow (and IMO more useful) understanding of that word.

they should be liable too the same laws, that is a leftist view,so equall rights are prominent

It used to be a leftist view. It hardly is nowadays.

 

[Tahuti]

Of course you'll always find counterexamples. As a whole, they're far more "to the left" than their American counterparts.

I find minorities and immigration to be an issue significant enough to view Americans (and Canadians) as not significantly more Right-Wing compared to Europeans, if it all. Europeans have more communal instincts, and while it translates to stereotypically Left-Wing positions on economics, it also fuels a significant Rightist sentiments on minorities and ethnicities that are alien to North America and the English-speaking world. European countries also stricter requirements to abortion, and many Eastern European countries in general are compartively more religious than the US.

 

[Old Hippy]

@Graffito
You give me a headache.

sorry...
but thankyou for replying anyway.

 

[Hygro]

There's a part of me that feels like if I brought a medieval peasant to the modern era instead of being wow'd they'd be like "you flipping idiots, you fell for the aristocratic lies? You're destroying everything, you morons! We had a perfect system. Now you're trapped in this endless cycle of making the powerful more powerful at the expense of your earth, families, and wellbeing." And then proceeding to explain how everyone used to understand that speech was all in metaphor and discourse was often used for effect rather than for explanation, and the moment people starting taking words literally rather than motivationally, everything went to poop.

But probably not.