The EU and Catholicism

[Tahuti]

For some weird reason, the most Pro-EU countries usually have Roman Catholicism as the most important religious group (that is, the religious group with most followers excluding formally non-affiliated people like atheists). In fact, thanks to Soviet policies promoting atheism in East Germany, Catholicism is the most important denomination of Christianity in Germany as well. While traditionally Protestant Netherlands is fairly Pro-European as well, it also has the caveat that secularization has been more influential among Protestants than Catholics, resulting too in a Catholic majority in an otherwise Protestant country. Poland is apparently, the exception to the rule.

Conversely, Protestant nations like Britain and the Scandinavian countries are strongly Eurosceptic. While Orthodox nations like Romania, Bulgaria and Greece are like the humpty dumpies of the EU.

Now, I don't think there is a direct correlation due to the tenets of the Catholic religion, but I may be wrong here. Perhaps Roman Catholic countries do have a common history that make them get along better, despite all those years of secularization, particularly in France.

 

[Lillefix]

I'm pretty sure there are other reasons. Historical and economical. Religion is very marginalised in Europe. It's a coincidence.

 

[gangleri2001]

Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox blocks? WTH? Nobody cares about that.

If you were right, the Vatican's stance on not being a member would be much more popular in you so-called "Catholic Europe".

 

[Lillefix]

I just noticed you new avatar gangleri. Made me laugh a bit. Good luck I suppose.

 

[Gucumatz]

Interesting coincidence that I have never really though about, but while perhaps a tiny factor (and I do mean microscopic, but yes perhaps still a tiny factor) it can be written off in my opinion as mostly a coincidence.

 

[gangleri2001]

I just noticed you new avatar gangleri. Made me laugh a bit. Good luck I suppose.

Can I have a bit of your tasty non-EU citizenship? Please! I crave it!

 

[Domen]

Catholicism is the most important denomination of Christianity in Germany as well.

And the most Catholic Bundesland of Germany - Bavaria - is at the same time the richest Bundesland of Germany.

The end of stereotype Catholic = "poor and backward redneck".

=================================================

Let's add that Bavaria is so rich thanks to Christian Social Union (CSU) party, which has ruled here since 1946, save from 1950 - 1953.

CSU's strong position in Bavaria is exceptional, because in all other Bundeslands either CDU, SPD or Greens have the leading role.

 

[Gucumatz]

Are you living/have lived/from Bavaria [we all know you are polish too, just curious if you are Bavarian as well] Domen ?

 

[Domen]

No, I live in Poland, not in Bavaria. I have visited Bavaria.

BTW - Catholic Bavaria is the richest Bundesland of Germany. And Catholic Hungary under Victor Orban is currently the most resourceful country in Europe, which is dealing with the economic crisis better than other countries and its economy is currently developing faster than economy of other countries.

Victor Orban's party - Fidesz (Hungarian Civic Union) - describes itself as a Christian Democratic People's Party.

Poland does not count as Catholic, since our current government is POmmunist* and has nothing to do with Christian Democracy or Christian Socialism.

*PO (Platforma Obywatelska) is the name of the party, and why "-mmunist" suffix, well - try to guess why.

Word "po" also means "post" (like "post-communist" = "pokomunistyczny", for example) in Polish language. Fits perfectly.

For some weird reason, the most Pro-EU countries usually have Roman Catholicism as the most important religious group

This "weird" reason is simply the fact, that European civilization was based on ideas of Christianity already before the Protestant Reformation.

Christian social ethics + Greek science and philosophy + Roman organization and law = united (universal) European civilisation.

Of course this equation is only a simplified reality (in fact much more factors contributed to European civilization, not just these three).

The Protestant Reformation also added many valuable things. Especially it strengthened individualism and work ethic.

 

[Tahuti]

Christian social ethics + Greek science and philosophy + Roman organization and law = united (universal) European civilisation.

Of course this equation is only a simplified reality (in fact much more factors contributed to European civilization, not just these three).

You forgot the Enlightenment and Humanism. And Capitalism: Any cultural elitist who bemoans the "evils" of Capitalism and asserts the cultural superiority of European values too often forgets that capitalism was born in what's now the Netherlands, Belgium and Italy.

 

[Domen]

You forgot the Enlightenment and Humanism.

Greek science and philosophy + Christian social ethics = Enlighetnment and Humanism (Christian social ethics especially contributed to Humanism).

BTW - actually Medieval Church was - at least in some periods - opposing original Christian social ethics and original social teaching of Jesus.

Everyone who has researched the history of Church, knows that during much of Medieval era it was seriously corrupted and degenerated.

There were Popes who had 20 or more children and 5 or more concubines during the Medieval era, despite already existing celibacy.

And of course that moral corruption and moral degeneration of Church was one of reasons why the Protestant Reformation took place.

But the fact that Catholic Church in some period was corrupted, doesn't mean that Catholicism as such is "evil" per se.

=====================================

I think that current Pope - Francis - is showing what Catholic worldview was originally supposed to be. He is also a very tolerant Pope.

Any cultural elitist who bemoans the "evils" of Capitalism

Original Capitalism - especially 18th to 19th century so called "wild Capitalism" - was very evil.

Workers of industrialized regions during the 19th century lived in terrible conditions and they usually lived no longer than 25 - 30 years.

19th century workers had shorter, harder and more unhealthy (polluted cities) lifes than Medieval peasants / serfs.

They were working like 20 hours a day, salaries were very low, accidents at work in factories happened very often.

Worker incapacitated by accident at work = worthless worker and he was usually dying of starvation (as well as entire family).

Conditions of life in those "barracks" and bunkhouses / hostels for workers were also bad. One public toilet for each 50 families, etc.

====================================

Modern Capitalism is very good - mostly because it is "domesticated Capitalism" - unlike that original wild Capitalism of the 1800s.

I am in no way a supporter of Communism. Communism has proven that it is inferior to Capitalism in every respect.

 

[Borachio]

Incidentally, is it true that the Catholic Church didn't ban abortion until 1868?

 

[Tahuti]

Original Capitalism - especially 18th to 19th century so called "wild Capitalism" - was very evil.

Workers of industrialized regions during the 19th century lived in terrible conditions and they usually lived no longer than 25 - 30 years.

19th century workers had shorter, harder and more unhealthy (polluted cities) lifes than Medieval peasants / serfs.

They were working like 20 hours a day, salaries were very low, accidents at work in factories happened very often.

Worker incapacitated by accident at work = worthless worker and he was usually dying of starvation (as well as entire family).

Conditions of life in those "barracks" and bunkhouses / hostels for workers were also bad. One public toilet for each 50 families, etc.

====================================

Modern Capitalism is very good - mostly because it is "domesticated Capitalism" - unlike that original wild Capitalism of the 1800s.

I am in no way a supporter of Communism. Communism has proven that it is inferior to Capitalism in every respect.

Capitalism originated as early as the 1400s in Tuscany and Flanders and was further riped in Holland in the 1500 and 1600s with the world's first stock exchanges. So the horrible working conditions of the 19th century (which people fail to mention were still a significant improvement from past centuries) weren't specifically caused by capitalism.

Incidentally, is it true that the Catholic Church didn't ban abortion until 1868?

Would actually make a lot of sense. Before abortion was a common medical procedure, it was quite a risky... affair. Women regularly died during such clandestine treatments, so a ban wouldn't really be necessary, provided you oppose such treatments.

 

[Jehoshua]

Incidentally, is it true that the Catholic Church didn't ban abortion until 1868?

No, that is an error.

Condemnations of abortion can be found in the didache, in the works of (2nd century) Tertullian and Athenagoras and in the works of St Augustine (5th century). Pope Sixtus V to note a papal condemnation in 1588 decreed various punishments for those who conducted the crime of inducing an abortion whether the child was "animated or unanimated, formed or unformed" (tam animati, quam etiam inanimati, formati, vel informis) saying they should suffer the same penalties as "true murderers and assassins who have actually and really committed murder" (veros homicidas, qui homicidium voluntarium actu, & re ipsa patraverint), in addition to being excommunicated for their crime.

There was however until the 17th century an opinion upholding the Aristotelian notion of "delayed ensoulment", ergo that early stage abortion, which still a grave sin, was not morally equivalent to true murder due to doubt as to whether a foetus in the early stages of pregnancy had a soul. This is in a roundabout way where the myth that the Church once condoned abortion comes from, since in 1869 in the bull Apostolicae Sedis moderationi, Pope Pius IX rescinded any distinction with regards to excommunication between aborting animated and unanimated foetuses, with the distinction in canon law that until then existed with regards to excommunication (noting that aborting unanimated foetuses was still a grave sin) being a last remnant of this school of thought in the Churches legal framework. (I would also note here that the abolition of the distinction proceeded from increased scientific knowledge of how conception occurred)

-

On the original question, I think its a coincidence (France for example supports the EU so strongly primarily due to its political heritage I think). Afterall you get a good number of predominantly Catholic states where Euroscepticism is strong (Hungary) so its not like the sceptic bug is the preserve of a protestant cultural backdrop.

-

On capitalism and horrible working conditions. The circumstances proceeded from the dual agricultural and industrial revolutions,. The agricultural revolution decreased substantially the amount of labour required in rural work (and initiated a population boom) creating a massive labour surplus, correspondingly resulting in cheap mass labour to support industrialisation and produce aforesaid horrible working conditions and livelihoods for the lower orders. That said Capitalism, although not a primary cause for the industrial revolution and the subsequent social ills that proceeded from it, did contribute a particular "capitalistic spirit" (proceeding from the popular rationalist ideas of various liberal enlightenment thinkers) amongst the noveau rich, which saw in the absence of industrial labour standards (industrialism being newly developed) workplace regimes aimed at maximising productivity along the most rational lines at the expense of the human dimension.

 

[metatron]

And the most Catholic Bundesland of Germany - Bavaria - is at the same time the richest Bundesland of Germany.

The end of stereotype Catholic = "poor and backward redneck".

a) Bavaria is known for having the most solid state budget. On any other metric it is not the richest state. Both in terms of private wealth per capita as well as gdp per capita other states rank better.

b) Your conclusion is also incorrect. If anything Bavaria is evidence for "poor and backward redneck... and a bunch of lying, cheating, thieving, fraudulant, stealing goddamn traitors and saboteurs of the common (i.e. national) good".

The German term that best summarises Baviria's rather Texan rise from degenerate, impoverished dump to wealthy, arrogant degenerate dump is this:

Extrawurst.

Also: plundering Franconia, with, like, no shame.
That's not helping with the redemption of Catholicism either.

 

[Grisu]

hmmm, the biggest religion in Switzerland is Catholicism as well, and Switzerland's widely renowned for being insanely pro-EU

 

[Tahuti]

hmmm, the biggest religion in Switzerland is Catholicism as well, and Switzerland's widely renowned for being insanely pro-EU

I thought Switzerland was Protestant!? But yeah, it is true. Likewise, the same goes to Hungary and the aforementioned example of P-land.

 

[metatron]

[...]

 

[Tahuti]

A map is usually a very unreliable metric to demonstrate religious affiliation, since it doesn't take into account such things such as population density.

 

[Grisu]

I thought Switzerland was Protestant!? But yeah, it is true. Likewise, the same goes to Hungary and the aforementioned example of P-land.

No, it's not protestant, it's more or less split with a bit more catholics than protestants: roughly 38% catholics, roughly 28% protestants.

Von der Wohnbevölkerung waren Ende 2012 gemäss den Bundesbehörden 38,6 Prozent römisch-katholisch, 28,0 Prozent reformiert, 20,1 Prozent waren konfessionslos, 4,5 Prozent gehörten zu islamischen Glaubensgemeinschaften, 6,8 Prozent gehörten zu anderen Religionsgemeinschaften und 2 Prozent machten keine Angabe.[10]

Among the population at the end of 2012 according to the federal authorities, 38,6% were roman-catholic, 28% reformed/protestant, 20,1% without denomination, 4,5% belonged to the islamic faith, 6,8% to others and 2% gave no information

the larger cities (Zürich, Geneva, Basel, Bern) are mostly protestant, the more rural areas more catholic (which ironically are the most anti-eu areas as well )

Actually, I'm being a bit surprised at the high catholic level of Geneva, according to metatron's map (it being the city of Calvin and all...)