The EU and Catholicism

[metatron]

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[Domen]

Capitalism originated as early as the 1400s in Tuscany and Flanders

Yes - that was so called merchant Capitalism, the earliest phase of it.

At that time, both regions - Tuscany and Flanders - were fully Catholic regions.

the horrible working conditions of the 19th century (which people fail to mention were still a significant improvement from past centuries)

No they were not any "significant improvement" from the past centuries.

Certainly not for the workers, maybe for factory owners and their wallets.

 

[Domen]

Both in terms of private wealth per capita as well as gdp per capita other states rank better.

Only Hamburg and Bremen - both of which are state-free cities / city-states, not states - rank better than Bavaria in terms of GDP per capita.

But I am quite sure that many cities within the state of Bavaria rank better than cities of Hamburg and Bremen.

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And when it comes to the stereotype that Atheists deal better with economy than Catholics:

Ukraine - 62,5% of population are "atheist or do not belong to any church".

GDP per capita of Ukraine - only $3,971 (nominal) and $7,598 (PPP) - one of poorest states in Europe.

Ukraine is the most atheist country in Europe - 2nd is France (40% atheists), 3rd is Czech Republic (37% atheists).

In Luxembourg 85,43% of population are Catholics and it is ranked 1st, 2nd or 3rd richest country in the world in terms of GDP per capita.

 

[dutchfire]

For some weird reason, the most Pro-EU countries usually have Roman Catholicism as the most important religious group (that is, the religious group with most followers excluding formally non-affiliated people like atheists). In fact, thanks to Soviet policies promoting atheism in East Germany, Catholicism is the most important denomination of Christianity in Germany as well. While traditionally Protestant Netherlands is fairly Pro-European as well, it also has the caveat that secularization has been more influential among Protestants than Catholics, resulting too in a Catholic majority in an otherwise Protestant country. Poland is apparently, the exception to the rule.

Conversely, Protestant nations like Britain and the Scandinavian countries are strongly Eurosceptic. While Orthodox nations like Romania, Bulgaria and Greece are like the humpty dumpies of the EU.

Now, I don't think there is a direct correlation due to the tenets of the Catholic religion, but I may be wrong here. Perhaps Roman Catholic countries do have a common history that make them get along better, despite all those years of secularization, particularly in France.

Protestant Work Ethic

 

[gangleri2001]

Protestant Work Ethic

Bavaria's living pro... Oh wait!

 

[Domen]

When it comes to Switzerland:

 

[Jehoshua]

You know, perhaps the notion that Catholic countries are more pro-EU is simply due to the fact that there aren't that many protestant majority EU nations, just Britain, Denmark, Finland, Sweden and Latvia and if you ignore the atheists Estonia (also there are more Catholics in the Netherlands than protestants at present but lets count them on protestant heritage ). Ergo considering the pool of nations we're talking about, its quite obvious your going to have a majority Catholic countries be pro-EU, since most of the EU countries are majority Catholic. (noting that only three EU countries are majority Eastern Orthodox in addition to our set of protestant majority/heritage nations)

Britain being the main protestant country here incidentally is much more likely to be Eurosceptic I think due to its legacy of Empire (lost) and its historic aloofness from continental affairs than due to protestant influence methinks.

 

[Tahuti]

No they were not any "significant improvement" from the past centuries.

Certainly not for the workers, maybe for factory owners and their wallets.

Then you have to take into account what exactly went before it.

contribute a particular "capitalistic spirit" (proceeding from the popular rationalist ideas of various liberal enlightenment thinkers) amongst the noveau rich, which saw in the absence of industrial labour standards (industrialism being newly developed) workplace regimes aimed at maximising productivity along the most rational lines at the expense of the human dimension.

I don't think Voltaire et. al could ever foresee that, nor that it had anything to do with it. While politics was involved in the Industrial Revolution, it was largely a technological phenomenom. Industrialisation was a spiritual successor to the textile craftsmenship, which was largely abandoned in favor for the former.

]Britain being the main protestant country here incidentally is much more likely to be Eurosceptic I think due to its legacy of Empire (lost) and its historic aloofness from continental affairs than due to protestant influence methinks.

On the side-note, how likely would it be that the Anglican church would reunite with the Roman Catholic church? Also, Ireland (interestingly, also largely Catholic) is fairly Pro-EU despite being an island.

 

[Domen]

Bavaria is not the richest non city state in Germany. It's Hessia

Depends which data you use and from which year.

The difference between Bavaria and Hessia is minimal anyway.

According to wikipedia (but they don't say from which year is this data):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany#States

Bavaria's GDP per capita is 35,443 Euro and is comparable to that of Hessia.

Bavaria and Hessia are the top 2 states in terms of GDP per capita.

There are 8 German states which have GDP per capita between 20,000 and 29,000 Euro.

Only 5 German states have GDP per capita higher than 30,000 Euro.

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Luxembourg is 85,43% Catholic (400,300 out of 468,571 citizens are Catholic) and is the 1st, 2nd or 3rd richest country in the world (depending on source).

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[metatron]

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[Jehoshua]

I don't think Voltaire et. al could ever foresee that, nor that it had anything to do with it. While politics was involved in the Industrial Revolution, it was largely a technological phenomenom. Industrialisation was a spiritual successor to the textile craftsmenship, which was largely abandoned in favor for the former.

No it was not a "spiritual successor" to textile craftsmanship, and it does not matter whether Voltaire or any other thinker foresaw the consequences of rationalism applied to the economic environment of industrialisation (incidentally I was thinking along the lines of Jeremy Bentham and his confreres). You are right that the processes that led to the industrial revolution were technological (agricultural revolution due to improvements in farming technology proceeding into mass population growth, igniting the industrial revolution in Britain) but the particular consequences for those in the industrial workforce came about due to the implementation of certain philosophical principles in the management of factories by their owners, and due to the corresponding degradation of the old social order with its various social obligations.

On the side-note, how likely would it be that the Anglican church would reunite with the Roman Catholic church? Also, Ireland (interestingly, also largely Catholic) is fairly Pro-EU despite being an island.

When hell freezes over, which is to say when the Anglican Church disavows its various heresies. Much more likely (and indeed its already occurring to some degree) is the more Catholic part of the Anglican sphere swimming the Tiber, leaving the rest to wallow in its irrelevance (its not relevant [in the west] because it just parrots the social consensus, instead committing to absolute virtues. Ergo it has nothing really to say apart from what a slew of other people are saying, which is why barely anyone listens to it as compared to the Catholic Church which everyone listens too and speaks about [usually clamouring for it to remake itself in the image of the mundane commentariat].)

 

[Leoreth]

Or maybe, just maybe, religion and economic prosperity aren't actually causally related.

 

[Smellincoffee]

Perhaps Catholic people are more disposed to seeing Europe as a unified Christendom, whereas Protestants, with nation-specific churches (The Church of England, the Greek Orthodox Church) and denominations that prevail only in one country or region thereof, are more nation-centric. Granted, Europe today is as much as Christendom as Odoacer's Rome was Tiberus'..

 

[Tahuti]

Or maybe, just maybe, religion and economic prosperity aren't actually causally related.

Religion as an abstract construct no, but if a particular interpretation of a religion is prevalent, that MAY have impact. Also, religion as a glue for social groups may also strongly affect economic factors. Ultra-Orthodox Jews and Muslim minorities in Western Europe tend to be poorer than the general populace, but Orthodox Protestants (and in the USA, Mormons and Jews of mainstream denominations) actually tend to be wealthier. The Islamic world also may have gotten behind in regards to Europe due to the latter's more relax social norms regarding debts.

 

[Leoreth]

Now you are talking in terms of socio-religious groups within one economy instead of complete national economies.