The EU (Sheeps NES)
- Thread starter Tyrion
- Start date
knigh+
.
The quotations from various members does not mean the corresponding replies are aimed at only that member. All of it is at all members. Please consider each item individually as well as a whole.
1 Efforts for membership
We completely agree, and we have not suggested otherwise. We will continue our reforms.
Our suggestion was not EU must take steps to accept our membership. It was that EU should not be blocking the reforms in candidate countries. Because it was solely EU's unfair hostility towards our country that changed our people's unconditional support of reforms into skepticism. We are not asking money, we are not asking weapons, we are not asking technology; all we ask is some moral support, that our citizens will see you are not trying to avoid Turkey's membership.
We appreciate the support for our progress, especially in the general abscence of it.
2 membership time
Turkey aims to be one of them in the of third such periods (2015-2019), by when we expect to have completed the reforms to satisfy all membership criteria and have resolved all our disputes.
Absolutely.
It is pointless for EU to argue that we are not suitable for membership now. Because we can already tell you that we are not. That's why we are not trying to be a member in, say 2009. We are surprised that EU countries are wasting time in such an irrelevant discussion. When our candidacy was acknowledged, we all agreed it will take many years to implement all the necessary reforms.
3 Viability of membership
(continued from the previous section)
If, on the other hand, EU is discriminatorily argueing that we will never be suitable for membership, even after we match all the criteria asked from other entrees, then EU would not be as civilized as it claims to be, and Turkey would not wish to be part of a closed and medieval-minded group anyway.
Turkey has more land in Europe than some EU members. Moreover, EU already has one member that is geographically 100% in Asia.
Although this comment was not about us, we feel we may contribute an idea to EU. We know that one of the primary concerns about Turkey's membership is the representation, as Turkey will have more population than any member when/if it joins. Since EU is mainly an economic union maybe you could determine the representation in proportion to the GDP instead of the population. This will not create any severe inequality among the founding members, as they have similar GDP per capita. It will prevent the concern about Turkey, as Germany, France, UK, Italy and Spain all have higher GDPs. Finally, it will encourage development and productivity in all members, as everyone will work harder to increase their representation.
EU is an economic and political union.
NATO is a military pact with several EU members.
OIC is an organization that only discusses matters related to the muslim populace. It does not have any economic implication, and its political tenets only regard relations among its own members.
Most of Turkey's trade is with EU countries. Turkey's administrative, legal and burocratic structure resembles that of EU countries more than any other such group. It is only logical that we apply.
OOC: I didn't know we had children here. An insult is an insult regardless of "(jk)" label attached to it.
4 Cyprus
EU should stop embargoing TRNC as a punishment of their survival.
We already made a proposal for this. The complicated problem of Cyprus is no place for rash actions. That's why we proposed that for the duration of one year, the blockade to be lifted from one TRNC city; and we would open one international airport as well as one nearby major port to trade with the Greek Administration of South Cyprus. At the end of one year we would see how well it worked and decide whether to expand trade on both sides. But that, like any other conciliatory attempt, was refused by GASC.
TRNC was the first to open irs border, TRNC was the side that voted YES to the unification plan. GASC still prosecutes its own citizens if they spend a night on the other side, or if they purchase anything. TRNC allows EU citizens to own property whereas GASC sues them for it (thankfully the EU courts saw reason and ruled such cases can be governed by TRNC courts).
EU already messed up and prevented a peaceful and final solution in the island when it allowed GASC into membership regardless of their unwillingness to cooperate. Because of EU’s support, GASC’s only response to TRNC’s and Turkey’s dialogue attempts has been “we want all our demands to happen”. If it wasn’t EU’s meddling, Cyprus would be a unified nation by now. Turkey will not be held responsible for the mistakes of EU, nor the inability of GASC to conduct civilized diplomacy. Expecting Turkey to clean after your mess is a blatant injustice, or an excuse to prevent Turkey’s accesion.
We know we are on the side working for peace in Cyprus, because we are on TRNC’s side and TRNC is the only side that voted in favor of unification.
Do not doubt our commitment to NATO, of course we are allies, including Italy and Greece.
We were NATO "allies" then too. That did not stop the Greek dictatorship of the time from rekindling the intercommunal fighting in the island. There is only one fact here: Before the Cyprus Peace Operation civilians were dying, after it they weren't (except 2 casulties in border incidents) and the island had peace (albeit a tense peace). You can’t seriously argue saving one life from certain death is not worth displacing two.
We did not do this to grab any land, and we haven't taken any. In both 1964 and 74 we acted in accordance to an international agreement between Turkey, UK, Greece, and Cyprus. In 1974 we did not act before asking UK to join the Peace Operation (they did not come along, but did not object either). Would we ask another country for joint operations if our intention was land grabbing?
We are not trying to pull UK into the discussion here. What happened is in the past is in the past and cannot be remedied now. We must inspect the situation of today for decisions of the future. Today's situation is simple: TRNC is not a part of Turkey, Turkey has never claimed it was. Cyprus Peace Force is there at TRNC's request (was more of a plea actually). If TRNC decides that they no longer want our protection, we will have no say in the matter. Until that happens, we are committed to protect them from the bullying of stronger countries.
OOC: If you want to get some impartial (non-wiki) analysis on Cyprus, check this site. It is a compilation of articles by British/American/Greek/Turkish/Cypriot historians/politicians/journalists/witnesses. It is the largest such collection online to my knowledge. It has a summary (called The Main Narrative) which in its text also has links into all the articles at appropriate places. But even without clicking any link, the main narrative takes about two hours to read. Regardless of this NES, you might find it useful to learn something about arguably the most complicated and complex (maybe Israel-Palestine is equally so) international problem of our time.
1 Efforts for membership
We completely agree, and we have not suggested otherwise. We will continue our reforms.
Our suggestion was not EU must take steps to accept our membership. It was that EU should not be blocking the reforms in candidate countries. Because it was solely EU's unfair hostility towards our country that changed our people's unconditional support of reforms into skepticism. We are not asking money, we are not asking weapons, we are not asking technology; all we ask is some moral support, that our citizens will see you are not trying to avoid Turkey's membership.
We appreciate the support for our progress, especially in the general abscence of it.
2 membership time
Turkey aims to be one of them in the of third such periods (2015-2019), by when we expect to have completed the reforms to satisfy all membership criteria and have resolved all our disputes.
Luxembourg said:
Absolutely.
It is pointless for EU to argue that we are not suitable for membership now. Because we can already tell you that we are not. That's why we are not trying to be a member in, say 2009. We are surprised that EU countries are wasting time in such an irrelevant discussion. When our candidacy was acknowledged, we all agreed it will take many years to implement all the necessary reforms.
3 Viability of membership
(continued from the previous section)
If, on the other hand, EU is discriminatorily argueing that we will never be suitable for membership, even after we match all the criteria asked from other entrees, then EU would not be as civilized as it claims to be, and Turkey would not wish to be part of a closed and medieval-minded group anyway.
Turkey has more land in Europe than some EU members. Moreover, EU already has one member that is geographically 100% in Asia.
Although this comment was not about us, we feel we may contribute an idea to EU. We know that one of the primary concerns about Turkey's membership is the representation, as Turkey will have more population than any member when/if it joins. Since EU is mainly an economic union maybe you could determine the representation in proportion to the GDP instead of the population. This will not create any severe inequality among the founding members, as they have similar GDP per capita. It will prevent the concern about Turkey, as Germany, France, UK, Italy and Spain all have higher GDPs. Finally, it will encourage development and productivity in all members, as everyone will work harder to increase their representation.
EU is an economic and political union.
NATO is a military pact with several EU members.
OIC is an organization that only discusses matters related to the muslim populace. It does not have any economic implication, and its political tenets only regard relations among its own members.
Most of Turkey's trade is with EU countries. Turkey's administrative, legal and burocratic structure resembles that of EU countries more than any other such group. It is only logical that we apply.
UK said:
OOC: I didn't know we had children here. An insult is an insult regardless of "(jk)" label attached to it.
4 Cyprus
Luxembourg said:
EU should stop embargoing TRNC as a punishment of their survival.
We already made a proposal for this. The complicated problem of Cyprus is no place for rash actions. That's why we proposed that for the duration of one year, the blockade to be lifted from one TRNC city; and we would open one international airport as well as one nearby major port to trade with the Greek Administration of South Cyprus. At the end of one year we would see how well it worked and decide whether to expand trade on both sides. But that, like any other conciliatory attempt, was refused by GASC.
TRNC was the first to open irs border, TRNC was the side that voted YES to the unification plan. GASC still prosecutes its own citizens if they spend a night on the other side, or if they purchase anything. TRNC allows EU citizens to own property whereas GASC sues them for it (thankfully the EU courts saw reason and ruled such cases can be governed by TRNC courts).
EU already messed up and prevented a peaceful and final solution in the island when it allowed GASC into membership regardless of their unwillingness to cooperate. Because of EU’s support, GASC’s only response to TRNC’s and Turkey’s dialogue attempts has been “we want all our demands to happen”. If it wasn’t EU’s meddling, Cyprus would be a unified nation by now. Turkey will not be held responsible for the mistakes of EU, nor the inability of GASC to conduct civilized diplomacy. Expecting Turkey to clean after your mess is a blatant injustice, or an excuse to prevent Turkey’s accesion.
We know we are on the side working for peace in Cyprus, because we are on TRNC’s side and TRNC is the only side that voted in favor of unification.
Italy said:
Do not doubt our commitment to NATO, of course we are allies, including Italy and Greece.
We were NATO "allies" then too. That did not stop the Greek dictatorship of the time from rekindling the intercommunal fighting in the island. There is only one fact here: Before the Cyprus Peace Operation civilians were dying, after it they weren't (except 2 casulties in border incidents) and the island had peace (albeit a tense peace). You can’t seriously argue saving one life from certain death is not worth displacing two.
We did not do this to grab any land, and we haven't taken any. In both 1964 and 74 we acted in accordance to an international agreement between Turkey, UK, Greece, and Cyprus. In 1974 we did not act before asking UK to join the Peace Operation (they did not come along, but did not object either). Would we ask another country for joint operations if our intention was land grabbing?
We are not trying to pull UK into the discussion here. What happened is in the past is in the past and cannot be remedied now. We must inspect the situation of today for decisions of the future. Today's situation is simple: TRNC is not a part of Turkey, Turkey has never claimed it was. Cyprus Peace Force is there at TRNC's request (was more of a plea actually). If TRNC decides that they no longer want our protection, we will have no say in the matter. Until that happens, we are committed to protect them from the bullying of stronger countries.
OOC: If you want to get some impartial (non-wiki) analysis on Cyprus, check this site. It is a compilation of articles by British/American/Greek/Turkish/Cypriot historians/politicians/journalists/witnesses. It is the largest such collection online to my knowledge. It has a summary (called The Main Narrative) which in its text also has links into all the articles at appropriate places. But even without clicking any link, the main narrative takes about two hours to read. Regardless of this NES, you might find it useful to learn something about arguably the most complicated and complex (maybe Israel-Palestine is equally so) international problem of our time.
Sheep
Orange Shrooms!
From the Republic of Cyrpus
We dismiss the claims Turkey has made in regards to the Cypriot division. We are the rightful government of all of Cyrprus, it is only the invasion in 1974 that Turkey undertook that has divided the nation in the first place. We will not recognise the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyrpus as it is nothing but a puppet front for aggressive intent from the Turkish nation.
We would like to put forward Resolution 5
Until such time that the island of Cyprus is re-unified under the true government of the Republic of Cyprus, and Turkish military units leave the island, it is forbidden for the Republic of Turkey to enter the European Union. Futhermore trade from the European Union to the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is to be restricted to essential foodstuffs and medicine only.
Republic of Cyrprus votes YES on Resolution 5.
We dismiss the claims Turkey has made in regards to the Cypriot division. We are the rightful government of all of Cyrprus, it is only the invasion in 1974 that Turkey undertook that has divided the nation in the first place. We will not recognise the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyrpus as it is nothing but a puppet front for aggressive intent from the Turkish nation.
We would like to put forward Resolution 5
Until such time that the island of Cyprus is re-unified under the true government of the Republic of Cyprus, and Turkish military units leave the island, it is forbidden for the Republic of Turkey to enter the European Union. Futhermore trade from the European Union to the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is to be restricted to essential foodstuffs and medicine only.
Republic of Cyrprus votes YES on Resolution 5.
knigh+
.
The island was divided in 1964, after hundreds of Turks were killed and tens of thousands became refugees.
1974 was the end of the serious problem that was intercommunal fighting.
Regardless, Greek violence is in the past and cannot be changed, just like the Peace Operation cannot be changed. We need to look for ways to reconcile in today's world.
knigh+
.
We salute your diplomatic ploy that is aimed to trick rest of the members by rolling two not necessarily together issues into a single resolution. Turkey's membership is not relevant to how you want to embargo the people who you claim to be your own citizens.
We hope wise EU nations will see through this trick and separate the two disconnected sentences.
Sheep
Orange Shrooms!
Conversely the Republic of Cyrprus hope that the wise, fellow members of the European Union will see the occupation of the northern part of our island from Turkish forces to be an unjust act and an illegal one under international law and will take the steps we deem necessary to ensure that the true government of the Republic of Cyprus is allowed once again to rule the island as a whole. Put simply the words of the Republic of Turkey are nothing but simply to mask their attempts to colonise the northern half of Cyprus with mainland Turks and to extend their own power at the expense of our small, yet independent Republic!
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
Luxembourg withholds opinion on Resolution 5 pending further debate.
OOC: Can we get NPC votes on Resolution 4? If it passes, we need to start drafting a preliminary consitution...
OOC: Can we get NPC votes on Resolution 4? If it passes, we need to start drafting a preliminary consitution...
Sheep
Orange Shrooms!
Seeing the need for a new constitution the resolution 4 will meet no opposition from any of the NPC nations.
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
Seeing as Resolution 4 has passed, Luxembourg offers its thoughts on the EU Consitutution (OOC: Available with comments here)
-The Preamble should be adopted.
-Part I titles I (DEFINITION AND OBJECTIVES OF THE UNION), II (FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS AND CITIZENSHIP OF THE UNION) , IV (THE UNION'S INSTITUTIONS AND BODIES), VI (THE DEMOCRATIC LIFE OF THE UNION), and VIII (THE UNION AND ITS NEIGHBOURS) should be adopted. Titles III, V, and VI, dealing with competences and finances, are overly complicated and should be postponed until the Consitutional Convention.
-All of Part II (THE CHARTER OF FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS OF THE UNION) is essential to the EU, and should be adopted.
-Part III is hideously complicated, and should be postponed until the Constitutional Covention.
-Part IV does not apply, seeing as this is merely a treaty, not a constitution. It should be postponed until the Constitional Convention.
-The Preamble should be adopted.
-Part I titles I (DEFINITION AND OBJECTIVES OF THE UNION), II (FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS AND CITIZENSHIP OF THE UNION) , IV (THE UNION'S INSTITUTIONS AND BODIES), VI (THE DEMOCRATIC LIFE OF THE UNION), and VIII (THE UNION AND ITS NEIGHBOURS) should be adopted. Titles III, V, and VI, dealing with competences and finances, are overly complicated and should be postponed until the Consitutional Convention.
-All of Part II (THE CHARTER OF FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS OF THE UNION) is essential to the EU, and should be adopted.
-Part III is hideously complicated, and should be postponed until the Constitutional Covention.
-Part IV does not apply, seeing as this is merely a treaty, not a constitution. It should be postponed until the Constitional Convention.
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
OOC: Can you put the Treaty of Luxembourg on the front page? Also, could you express an opinion about my above post?
Sheep
Orange Shrooms!
Insane_Panda
Deity
The nation of France cannot and will not support the inclusion of Turkey within our Union. This is a EUROPEAN Union, and though it indeed is a union of economics and politics, it is also one built upon European values, and is for the nations of Europe. Turkey, though its borders are within the European state, is not, in its nature, European - it is a nation of the middle east. For that, though we would very much like continued cooperation with Turkey, we cannot find it acceptable to admit it into membership within our Union.
Italy does not see the point in excluding Turkey due to geography, and believes it unnecessarily weakens the potential of the EU. At a later time, Turkey should be heavily considered and if denied, it should not be on the basis of geography of all things.
Italy votes yes on the Treaty of Luxembourg.
Italy votes yes on the Treaty of Luxembourg.
Kozmos
Jew Detective
We hold the same opinion. Turkey has always been a foreign invader in Europe.
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
Is everyone in agreement with Luxembourg's thoughts on the Constitution (Post 71)?
Insane_Panda
Deity
France agrees with the proposals as laid out by Luxembourg. Europe is well on the way towards a brighter future.
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