The European Project: the future of the EU.

[Akka]

I'm sorry, but weren't the main causes of Greece's financial crisis in the 2010s, widespread systematic tax evasion, very bad loans and decades of overspend on public services, because incumbent Greek politicians were more concerned with getting re-elected, than with the state of the economy? Or was that another Greece?

Yes, but some people are just intent on finding a scapegoat, build their entire worldview around it and filter out/deflect anything that challenge this warped view. Easier to blame the EU than oneself, that's also what caused the Brexit (and then some people noticed that even without the EU, things didn't went better).

 

[Snowygerry]

One of the great things of the EU is that every member is free to leave at anytime, try that with any other political union...

 

[Kyriakos]

Eva, I have to assume you realize you are just repeating a soundbite - apparently without care of the impression it makes. I will leave it at that. Help in case of war would be the most deluded thing to expect when ruin was brought to the country by those asking for people to go fight and die for them.
Greece did fight for the right reason, in european wars, more recently in ww2, unlike most in the now Eu who were allied to the nazis.

 

[Gorbles]

I'm sorry, but weren't the main causes of Greece's financial crisis in the 2010s, widespread systematic tax evasion, very bad loans and decades of overspend on public services, because incumbent Greek politicians were more concerned with getting re-elected, than with the state of the economy? Or was that another Greece?

See, this is the dissonance I'm on about. Pretending that the EU doesn't ever do anything "bad" doesn't mean it didn't actually do anything "bad". Nor does this magically absolve the countries it does "bad" things to of their own mistakes, of course.

But this is answer enough I guess. The EU is successful at "peace" because they've declared themselves so. Pay no attention to the member-states running around in the corner.

(it must be noted, that critics of the EU apply the same kind of logic to its successes, by ignoring or otherwise running rings around them)

 

[EvaDK]

Eva, I have to assume you realize you are just repeating a soundbite - apparently without care of the impression it makes. I will leave it at that. Help in case of war would be the most deluded thing to expect when ruin was brought to the country by those asking for people to go fight and die for them.
Greece did fight for the right reason, in european wars, more recently in ww2, unlike most in the now Eu who were allied to the nazis.

I think you know me well enough, that I'm not attempting to hurt your feelings or throw platitudes at you. Your nation made some pretty big mistakes leading up to the 2010s crisis. My nation made some pretty big mistakes leading up to our 1970s economic crisis, which lasted about ten years here. The first thing you do then, is to acknowledge that you caused a problem and you need to take responsibility for that problem and for solving it. If someone else offers their help, be grateful. Nations or persons, same difference.

See, this is the dissonance I'm on about. Pretending that the EU doesn't ever do anything "bad" doesn't mean it didn't actually do anything "bad". Nor does this magically absolve the countries it does "bad" things to of their own mistakes, of course.

But this is answer enough I guess. The EU is successful at "peace" because they've declared themselves so. Pay no attention to the member-states running around in the corner.

(it must be noted, that critics of the EU apply the same kind of logic to its successes, by ignoring or otherwise running rings around them)

I don't think I made any claim that the EU never does anything bad or wrong. And I don't agree with all the laws that emerge from Bruxelles. No union or federation of nations is perfect, but the EU has proven to be one of the most succesful attempts at it so far.

 

[Snowygerry]

Good (imho) summary of the affair here,

A Tale of Two Countries: A History of the Greek Debt Crisis

AAYUSH SINGH - OCTOBER 10TH, 2022 EDITOR: KAREENA HARGUNANI There’s a European proverb commonly heard

econreview.berkeley.edu

Of course, these banking failures were also international in nature. Large banking institutions going underwater throughout the Great Recession significantly hurt the entire globe because of the important role finance plays in the macroeconomy. These bank failures imposed severe pain on governments; in turn, since banks were large holders of government debt, a fatal cycle developed. Greece, a nation that found itself trapped by this cycle, looked to Europe, and especially Germany, for help. This represents the central paradox of the European debt crisis: you cannot understand Germany without understanding Greece, and you cannot understand Greece without understanding Germany.

 

[innonimatu]

European politics as things currently are, is found over in the thread about Ukraine...

As you should have noticed, discussion of pure politics there tends to get deleted. It's all about the news . Certaionly there0's no lack of clownish news to put there but without contecxt they are hardly worth discussing.

Anyway, you're correct in that the failure of prohect ukraine is going to heat up european politics. Very much. The blame game already started.

 

[Gorbles]

I don't think I made any claim that the EU never does anything bad or wrong. And I don't agree with all the laws that emerge from Bruxelles. No union or federation of nations is perfect, but the EU has proven to be one of the most succesful attempts at it so far.

Okay, and? This is just platitudes.

I don't agree with everything Brussels does either, which is why I'm trying to understand your jab at "alternative history" on the other page, and subsequently your drive to exonerate the EU (chiefly Germany) from the issues Greece has had to deal with. These suggest a lack of willingness to consider when the EU does something wrong, because (presumably) the EU is such a successful institution. It seems kinda biased? Like on one level I get it, but "oh I'll give it a pass because I think it's trying its best" works when my mate promises to pay me back a pint at the pub, but this is international relations we're talking about!

 

[Snowygerry]

The EU rarely does anything wrong because it has almost no agency, it relies entirely on the member states,

in the example above, Merkel, Schlauble, IMF get most blame for the failed austerity policy, along with the unnamed Greek politicians that swindled their way into the common currency.

It’s a political magicians trick really

 

[Gorbles]

The EU rarely does anything wrong because it has almost no agency, it relies entirely on the member states,

in the example above, Merkel, Schlauble IMF get most blame for the failed austerity policy, along with the unnamed Greek politicians that swindled their way into the common currency.

It’s a political magicians trick really

Hence, "chiefly Germany" (on the EU's side)

 

[Snowygerry]

The lesson was learned apparently, the next crisis it was the ECB counting the pennies, no longer the German finanzminister..