The fine-tuning argument for God's existence

You can define "belief" and "faith" in that way if you want to. It doesn't change the point that I can't put my trust in something that seems to me not to exist. If you like, I won't use the word "believe" to refer to thinking that something exists. I'll just call it "thinking that something exists". And, if you like, we'll use the word "believe" to mean "place trust in".

Then the problem becomes: I can't "believe" in something (in your sense) if I don't think that that thing exists. But I can't simply decide to think that something exists. That's not within my power. Is it within yours? If so, can you give us a demonstration?

This is the substantial point I'm trying to make here, and it's not affected by playing around with the definitions of words.

[sniped]

I think you've said it yourself: that's willing suspension of disbelief. Just as we can discuss at enormous length whether the Hulk is strong enough to lift Thor's hammer, or whether the Flash is faster than Superman, without actually believing that any of this is real. You cared about Hulk Hogan as a concept but you didn't really believe he was real, just as people got so angry about The Phantom Menace because they cared about Star Wars without actually thinking it was real (although I had a housemate who was pretty borderline). If you were fully aware that Hulk Hogan wasn't real, then you didn't think he was real.
The most helpful part for me was actually in your rewording of the issue without changing the substance of your statement. You said " I can't simply decide to think that something exists. "

Well said... and this resolved my "Hulk Hogan" challenge nicely. I did not decide that Hulk Hogan existed. I could not, because I knew he did not exist. But in my suspension of disbelief I was able to care about him as if he was real.

Thanks again Plotinus:goodjob:
alumnus*

I assume alumnus. You could very well be an alumna, but experience and probability suggests to me the former :p.
:eek: The horror! :blush: The embarrassment!... fixed;) thanks
 
alumnus*

I assume alumnus. You could very well be an alumna, but experience and probability suggests to me the former :p.

Would it be 'member alumnus', I wonder - 'alumnus' being usually a noun but here used as an adjective? Like 'professor emeritus', but less clear-cut.
 
That needn't be quite as iron-clad as you set it out, perhaps. C.S. Lewis has a bit (sorry, can't say where; it's been a long time), where he proposes, to people who think they have first to believe in the existence of God before they could then put faith in Him, that they just try it out for a while the opposite way round; live your life trusting in Him (as revealed in the Bible? as mediated by Anglicanism? That would be it's own separate issue, I suppose), and see whether that lived experience doesn't give grounds for believing in His existence. I'm ninety percent sure that Lewis makes it a matter of these different definitions of "believe" that have just come up.
.

I've come across that idea too. And I have briefly tried it (I'm very daring really). I can't say I noticed any difference. Maybe I was a bit more confused than usual, though.
 
It's interesting to hear you report that, B, because when I read the Lewis piece I wondered how it would play out, if someone actually gave it a go.

It may require a bit more than a brief test, I suppose, if it's to work the way Lewis thinks it can.
 
That needn't be quite as iron-clad as you set it out, perhaps. C.S. Lewis has a bit (sorry, can't say where; it's been a long time), where he proposes, to people who think they have first to believe in the existence of God before they could then put faith in Him, that they just try it out for a while the opposite way round; live your life trusting in Him (as revealed in the Bible? as mediated by Anglicanism? That would be it's own separate issue, I suppose), and see whether that lived experience doesn't give grounds for believing in His existence. I'm ninety percent sure that Lewis makes it a matter of these different definitions of "believe" that have just come up.

I thought it was a clever argument, at least, because I think Christianity is not primarily an explanation for the workings of the universe, but a frame-of-meaning for one's life.

C.S. Lewis writes extremely well and he also freely admits to being a flawed human being who came to Christ quite late. He's highly recommended. Did any of us who entered into relationships understand the gravity of what we were doing when we gave them our alleigance? I doubt this as I reflect upon my misteps in relationships. We learn by doing and sometimes appreciate the Other more due to the history of that relationship.

You're conflating 'fact' and 'evidence'. I am using the terms differently. You use evidence to create your beliefs. For example, the testimony given in Matthew is useful, but is deemed less credible (to me) since the author sometimes just makes up stuff for unknown reasons and presents them as fact. This makes the reporting of incredible events less, well, believable.

I quite like the Matt 22:37 instruction. It's why I commonly suggest Christians shuck the parts of the Bible that clearly are libelous towards God.
So I wonder, do you cut out verses from other texts when you dislike them? I wonder what libraries would look like under such censorship?
Righto. As you wish.
It makes no difference how you spell it in Latinized script. It's a transliteration.

Koran, Quran, Qur'an. Take your pick. I've used them all.

It's pertinent because you seem to take the Bible as the literal word of God. Presumably because it declares itself to be so.

The Qur'an also declares itself to be so. Why do you accept the one but not the other?

That is if you don't accept the Qur'an.

What is the basis for you not accepting it?

Interesting. It's like using the quaint word Negro. It's correct but hopelessly dated.

I have no opinion of the beliefs of those who follow Islam. I cannot persuade them not to believe and I will not comment upon the veracity of their claims.

In Christianity, and I can only speak from personal experience and education, what another believes in none of my business due to Free Will. I cannot persuade he/she to believe anything.

The path to Christianity is about being allowed to find God. Unless called by God, you could hunt forever in the wilderness and never find God. It's a choice to enter into that relationship if so called. I cannot make one person love another. At best, I can love another with all my heart, soul, and mind. I hope to find someone to love me in that depth too. It's a misnomer to think I can somehow act as an agent to alter another such that they believe in God and Jesus Christ.

The history of witnessing is about establishing an intimate friendship with another to truly care for them. How would it be possible to do this on an Internet forum, and do it effectively, so that they encounter the Gospel?

Regardless of whether I believe in the words of the Quran as valid, what could be possibly served by being intolerant on an anonymous Internet forum to attempt to dissuade them of their beliefs, which is not only a violation of Free Will, it's bad form. There's nothing considerate about that.
 
Hmm. I'm not sure I wouldn't be risking a mental breakdown doing that. It's not terribly advisable to embrace cognitive dissonance to that extent, I feel.

edit: I notice you don't actually answer my question, though, Mr Box.

Why don't you believe the Qur'an is the inerrant word of God, while you believe the Bible is?
 
So I wonder, do you cut out verses from other texts when you dislike them? I wonder what libraries would look like under such censorship?

Er, well, there's no censorship obviously ...

But yeah, I tend to weight the credibility of other testimony based on the known falsehoods they report. Who wouldn't?

I'm not saying Christians should destroy Bibles, I'm saying they should shuck the libel the Bible contains. Love God more than they love some book.
 
Hmm. I'm not sure I wouldn't be risking a mental breakdown doing that. It's not terribly advisable to embrace cognitive dissonance to that extent, I feel.

edit: I notice you don't actually answer my question, though, Mr Box.

Why don't you believe the Qur'an is the inerrant word of God, while you believe the Bible is?

It's not my responsibility to explain everything to you. It's the personal responsibility of us all to determine our beliefs. Regardless, Jesus makes it crystal clear.
"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you." John 15:16

You can't choose Yahweh. The reason you can't figure this out is you think you can, perhaps find some evidence, regardless that belief is not about evidence, think being pseudo-witty will work for you, make distracting statement that are off-topic about the Quran, and then think this will somehow make you enlightened.

How's that working out for you? What does it matter what I believe? What does it matter what I think? Why are you focused on someone giving you the answers?
 
It's working out fine. It matters to me what you believe. Of course it matters what you think.

What makes you think I'm focused on someone giving me the answers?

Do you have any more questions?
 
Would it be 'member alumnus', I wonder - 'alumnus' being usually a noun but here used as an adjective? Like 'professor emeritus', but less clear-cut.

In that case it would actually be (membrum¹) alumni in the correct usage of the declension as he would be using alumnus in the genitive sense: "member of the graduates". Although it still wouldn't be pronounced in the way most every American insists on pronouncing it (i.e. incorrectly).

¹I would assume. Membrum literally means limb, and I'm unsure if it was used in Latin in the more figurative sense that its modern descendants use.
 
Er, well, there's no censorship obviously ...

But yeah, I tend to weight the credibility of other testimony based on the known falsehoods they report. Who wouldn't?

I'm not saying Christians should destroy Bibles, I'm saying they should shuck the libel the Bible contains. Love God more than they love some book.

I dunno. It seems problematic that a fallible weak inconstant creature like myself should chose what is Truth versus the Almighty. It doesn't compute.

Are there things I read it...and shudder or even feel disgust? Sure.

Tell you what, the advice that Yeshua gave other Christians is pretty spectacular. It's a passage aimed only at the believer, and the consequences for not fulfilling our jobs for God. Think of it as an action list, that practically everyone would have no issue with, and if all Christians would do this, then a whole lot of people would journey to be found by God.

Spoiler :
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ The Gospel of Matthew 25: 34-45.

The ones condemned are not the unbelievers as so many people have been led to think. The ones condemned are the ones who know that Yeshua is Lord and yet didn't do these works of altruism. This is what is our main job as Christians. It's not about prosthelyzing on the Internet, looking for a bite, in order to win souls.

Jesus saves, not us. God finds you and Jesus chooses you. Not us. If we love All BEING and the Son of BEING, then we're supposed to love our neighbor as ourselves: the last fragment of the Summary of the Law. Altruism equates to loving Yahweh (BEING) with the totality of our being, and we demonstrate this by loving our neighbor (love their being/ honor their existence as children of God) as ourselves. Or not, and those who profess that Jesus is Lord but failed, are then cursed for it. It's not the unbeliever who struggles and can't believe because they think they need evidence to love God. It's the believer who failed to love totally.

This is the riddle of the first shall be last and the last shall be first. It is a secret. It's why the parables seem unpenetrable unless you study it with your whole being. That's with your heart, not the mind, that allows God to open the door, and it's the integration of your being that gives revelation.
 
EDIT: Cross-posted Latin grammar:
Spoiler Niche interest :

I don't think that's right. Membrum is indeed a limb (or more commonly used as its English cognate), but to be a 'limb of the alumni' it would need to be genitive plural, so alumnorum. Membrum alumni would be 'the protegee's penis'. If the 'member' is nominative (which it has to be for a verb of being - ego sum alumnus not ego sum alumnum), then so too does any word operating in the same grammatical function. So I think double nominative, perhaps making the case for an implied present participle in there - hence member (English) alumnus, like Pope emeritus. Certainly in actual Latin you have double-noun phrases like that: magister grammaticus being 'a schoolmaster-grammar-teacher'.
 
EDIT: Cross-posted Latin grammar:

I don't think that's right. Membrum is indeed a limb (or more commonly used as its English cognate), but to be a 'limb of the alumni' it would need to be genitive plural, so alumnorum. Membrum alumni would be 'the protegee's penis'. If the 'member' is nominative (which it has to be for a verb of being - ego sum alumnus not ego sum alumnum), then so too does any word operating in the same grammatical function. So I think double nominative, perhaps making the case for an implied present participle in there - hence member (English) alumnus, like Pope emeritus.

You are indeed correct. It would be alumnorum in that case. Regardless it wouldn't be used in an adjectival sense as "emeritus" is, as it's not an adjective. It would be a noun existing in the genitive case.
 
Why genitive, though? And I don't think the line between adjective and noun is as strong in Latin as you make out. After all, alumnus is itself essentially an participle turned substantive (like sapiens for 'philosopher', which is only-just removed from the present participle of the verb sapere) from alere - it literally means 'one who is nourished'.

Adjectives can certainly be used as nouns - magnus means both 'big' and 'a big guy' - and there are a few cases where nouns, used as if there's an imaginary present participle in the mix, are used as if they were adjectives. Emeritus doesn't have to be an adjective.
 
Why genitive, though? And I don't think the line between adjective and noun is as strong in Latin as you make out. After all, alumnus is itself essentially an participle turned substantive (like sapiens for 'philosopher', which is only-just removed from the present participle of the verb sapere) from alere - it literally means 'one who is nourished'.

Adjectives can certainly be used as nouns - magnus means both 'big' and 'a big guy' - and there are a few cases where nouns, used as if there's an imaginary present participle in the mix, are used as if they were adjectives. Emeritus doesn't have to be an adjective.

Because he's not using "graduate" as an adjective. He isn't saying he's a "graduated member" he's saying he's a "member of the graduate body", which is genitive. The difference is subtle, but it's definitely there.
 
Ah, I see what you mean - you're going for a partitive genitive. I'm not sure that's quite how it works - because he's not actually a limb of the alumni, he is an alumnus. So quis es alumnorum would be 'which of the alumni are you?', to which the reply might be Porcus Volans alumnus sum 'I am Flying Pig, the alumnus'. Porcus Volans alumnorum sum would be wrong - that would be 'I am the alumni's flying pig'.
 
I dunno. It seems problematic that a fallible weak inconstant creature like myself should chose what is Truth versus the Almighty. It doesn't compute.

Of course it does. It's not a 'versus the Almighty' scenario, it's versus the Bible. These aren't the same thing, not at all.

There are plenty of texts that state incorrect things about the Creator. Old physics textbooks said the Creator created a collapsing universe. Aristotle said the Earth was eternal. Genesis suggests the Creator made stars after He made plants.

Of course you're weak and fallible, we all are. But you can still selectively shuck falsehoods as you learn about them. Jesus told us to love God, but then also instructed people to love the god depicted in the Torah. These aren't the same entity. One's a false god, and one is (as you know) an unprovable entity for which very little evidence exists.
 
It's an Appeal to Ridicule by comparing the definition for God who is BEING itself with fictious literary figures!

Isn't this begging the question? You have decided (not without some merit) that God not only exists, but is also the Supreme Creator, and then condemn Plotinus (who does not believe that) for comparing your beliefs with heroic characters in fiction.

As has been noted, pointing out a list of supposed fallacies without any actual rebuttals doesn't actually make for a compelling argument, if at all.
 
Especially if they're not formal fallacies. We use a variety of rules of thumbs that can be informal fallacies, but this does not mean that their use will generate a wrong result. They generate the correct result often enough that we use them!
 
Back
Top Bottom