I don't attend church at all and I'll freely praise the Islamic Golden Age as much as you want, but that doesn't make me not a Christian, unless we're using one of those funky definitions of 'Christian' that devoutly religious people like to spring out, you know the ones that actually mean a very specific thing and not just someone who believes that Jesus Christ was the Son of God.
The fine-tuning argument for God's existence
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I don't attend church at all and I'll freely praise the Islamic Golden Age as much as you want, but that doesn't make me not a Christian, unless we're using one of those funky definitions of 'Christian' that devoutly religious people like to spring out, you know the ones that actually mean a very specific thing and not just someone who believes that Jesus Christ was the Son of God.
Crackerbox
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False. Why would you make such an obviously false claim?Religious affiliation in the US Senate
Are their actions compatible with their faith in Jesus Christ? Did I specifically mention the US Senate or speak generally?
While some politicians make a statement of affiliation of faith, most don't for a variety of reasons. Some would rather be private about that, disbelieve, feel it would narrow who would vote for them (say Baptist or Roman Catholic) in some districts, etc.
Many politicians are Jewish. Some are Muslims. Some are Hindu. Some are atheists. Some simply have no belief, not an active disbelief. Some attend church for social reaons but never have done any ministry for time constraints. Some might self-indentify as Christians but then never donate a dime, go less than four times a year, etc.
It's really vague in American politics unless it's election time and they're speaking to a specific group.
Are you going to correct your statement that I made an obviously false claim. Your link is not proof.
Crackerbox
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How is what I have said a judgement? To declare the improbability of something based upon another's actions isn't an accusation or a condemnation. If I declare someone is probably a Muslim, is that an accusation or condemnation or an observation?
Judge not lest ye be judged from Matthew. Well that word judged is krinete which means to condemn. I have done no such thing.
It could literally be translated correctly for clarity as Condemn not lest you be condemned.
https://www.teknia.com/greek-dictionary/krino
Judge not lest ye be judged from Matthew. Well that word judged is krinete which means to condemn. I have done no such thing.
It could literally be translated correctly for clarity as Condemn not lest you be condemned.
https://www.teknia.com/greek-dictionary/krino
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Is it wriggling to do some exegesis to explain the mistake you made in your quote, or it instructive such to dispel confusion and error.
Hm. It does have that legal meaning, but its strict Classical meaning is simply to decide or consider something. Over time this evolved into deciding between things and therefore to deciding against a defendant in court. 'Don't jump to conclusions, lest others jump to conclusions about you' would also be valid.
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http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/7-1.htm
It's most assuredly about condemnation, not making an observation about another, or we couldn't ever speak about anyone at all. Oh he's a Democrat. Ohhh you're judging him! See?
And this is consistent Biblically with the story of the Prostitute in John 8. We are not to condemn others.
Spoiler :
Yes - if you read the commentary you posted:
The important thing isn't the conclusion you reach but the fact of presuming the right to judge in the first place. You can κρίνειν perfectly neutrally or even favourably about something, although the latter meaning seems to have gradually eroded in the Koine. The last comment in the commentary seems like self-righteous loopholing to me, though.
The important thing isn't the conclusion you reach but the fact of presuming the right to judge in the first place. You can κρίνειν perfectly neutrally or even favourably about something, although the latter meaning seems to have gradually eroded in the Koine. The last comment in the commentary seems like self-righteous loopholing to me, though.
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Which commentary on that page though? The general consensus from all of the commentaries on that Greek word is condemnation not observation being an issue.
That man is black. Is that an observation or a condemnation about his color having some bearing on something?
That man could be a Muslim. Same thing. It's not immediately a negative statement.
With American politicians, I haven't seen a lot of people who lived into their faith when Christians. Some special ones come to mind like Sen. John Dansforth. It's not a condemnation of the rest who self-profess a faith in Christ. Some people are Christmas and Easter folks. God bless them, they only show up twice a year and claim belief in Jesus Christ. Seems odd but it's an observation of that oddity, not a condemnation.
It's back to religious affiliation being of lesser importance in American politics, something that's happened especially after 1950 or so. Think, Deists are NOT Christians by definition. Some might profess an admiration for Jesus, but they aren't Trinitarians. Deists founded America, so one could make the case that from the beginning it wasn't strictly de riguer to be a Christian in politics.
It's a particular kind of observation - namely, the sort which presumes to be able to pass judgement as to whether someone is good, bad, deserving, undeserving and so on. If you walk around looking at people, weighing them up and deciding that they've all passed your imaginary test, you're still doing the wrong thing.
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Wait, you're condemning me!
You're condemning me for making obsevations. But I'm observing you're condeming me, not condemning you for condemning me!
I quite like Matthew 7. The church I was part of really liked it too. We had a very low tolerance for False Prophets, and were very quick to point out when Preacher So-and-So was "acting as a prophet" rather than as a mere "concerned guy doing his best".
Though, we were raised with an idea that being a Christian took massively more effort than the mainstream lukewarms thought it did. It still boggles me how many people think they're saved, sometimes.
Though, we were raised with an idea that being a Christian took massively more effort than the mainstream lukewarms thought it did. It still boggles me how many people think they're saved, sometimes.
Gori the Grey
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Wait, you're condemning me!
No, the Book you regard as your guide is condemning you, Crackerbox.
You claim simply to be making an "observation": whether the actions of a politician who professes to be a Christian qualify him or her to truly deserve that label.
Luke 18:11-14 would seem to me to caution against judging the reality of someone's relation to God based on outward appearances.
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21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Mathew 7: 21-23.
The declaration of belief is the beginning of a spiritual walk. To call Jesus the Lord, is the same thing that the sheep and the goats BOTH did in Mathew 25. And yet in Matthew 7 and Matthew 25, it's the one who does God's will that are saved.
It's not enough to label ourselves Christians. Mathew 25 is very clear on what a sheep (a true servant believer) does. They spend all of their being to love others as Christ loves others, BUT also they profess Jesus as their Lord.
I'm not condemning anyone. It's better to find a ministry and wholeheartedly be a Christian, passionate about being God's hands in the world to accomplish God's Will, not our own vain will. How can you do that when you are not committed to ministry and attendence and offer up tithes and offerings?
There are three different parables in Matthew 25, and they all talk about the depth of commitment: to watch and wait and be prepared (the Virgins), to commit our all and not be stingy (the bags of gold), and to commit our life and not merely words (the sheep and the goats).
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Mathew 25: 41-46
The mildest of declarations is not the mark of a Christian. It's the beginning of commitment. If that's all you give to God, then maybe there's room for improvement.
Gori the Grey
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I didn't say you were. I said you were presuming to judge the reality of someone's relation with God from outward appearances.
The quote you give, Matthew 7:23, indicates who is in a position to make that judgment.
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