The fine-tuning argument for God's existence

I wonder why you're bothering, then! At any rate, I'm not trying to convert people to atheism - I don't really care what people believe, as long as they're not irrational about it. This thread is meant to be about the supposed attempt to prove God's existence. I was posting in order to show why I think the purported proof doesn't work. That's not an argument for atheism, it's a criticism of an argument for theism. That's not the same thing.

Why do we spend so much time discussing the word "prove"?

From OP:

A simple arguement [sic!] in favour of God's existence goes as follows

Does an "argument in favor" now considered to be a "proof of God's existence"?

In any case, all the participants must admit that this thread was rather a hit, gathering 1000 posts in about a month on a gaming forum (you can play but you cannot hide! ;) )precisely because for the most layman skeptics science and religion in the same sentence already sound blasphemous. "Didn't science prove religion wrong long time ago?"

Meanwhile, to contribute to the surprising slackening of this very fine tuned debate consider the proof that Scientists discover that atheists might not exist, and that’s not a joke. :cringe:
 
OK. But just how strong is your faith, Mr Box? Can it withstand chats round the fireplace with jovial atheists?

Of course! I have great friends of all faiths and those who are absolute atheists. We don't despise each other's differences. We don't have to be perfect litttle identical pennies.

Diversity is one of the greatest strengths of America. I feel most at home among those who are different. That's true joy.

But, through volunteerism and work I do think that I bore fruit for Christendom, not by my own efforts or wisdom, but by submission to God.
 
No, but we have shown that the fine-tuning argument fails to prove God's existence (or even give any good reason to think that God exists). That doesn't prove that God doesn't exist, it merely removes a supposed reason to think that he does.

You addressed (unsuccessfully, for reasons I went on to point out) the less important points I made in this post, but you didn't address the more important ones I made later on, including Kant's demolition job of your cosmological argument.

The fine-tuning argument supports the notion of God existence's as the universe itself is balanced on a knife's edge to permit & allow for building blocks and environments that life requires.

Whether said evidence is compelling enough is a personal matter, as numerous scientists and physicists have come to acknowledge the existence of God based off the evidence of fine-tuning.

Fine-tuning provides examples of how nature is able to produce the current complexity of life, and when one reflects upon the unlikelihood of these examples, it may have the potential to point to a creator.

As such, the argument is advanced to suggest that nature cannot account for our present state of existence without relying upon direct, miraculous, divine intervention somewhere in the process. Otherwise, some sort of another explanation is required and it generally breaks down to:

1) A lucky accident

Very improbable since since a straightforward interpretation of the evidence points in favor of an intelligent creator. An analogy would be asserting in the belief that a tornado could leave behind a perfectly working Lamborghini in mint condition whilst having rampaged through a yard of junk parts. That's some leap of faith.

Others contend that because humans exist, the laws of nature clearly must be the ones compatible with life. Otherwise, we simply would not be here to notice the fact. To argue against this line of reasoning, one could make the analogy of surviving an execution at a firing squad completely unharmed. Here, it is argued that the naturalist’s argument above is analogous to saying, "Of course all of the shots missed, otherwise I would not be here to notice that I’m still alive!” A much more logical approach would be to seek out an explanation for why such an unlikely event occurred. A good scientific explanation satisfies curiosity. This of explanation does nothing to offer any resolution; a tautology.

2) An Inevitability

From a more scientific standpoint, it is often claimed that the theory of inflation gives an adequate explanation for such precision and balance. The theory of inflation states that in the early stages of cosmological evolution, the universe underwent a period of exponential expansion. By proposing the right kinds of inflationary models, it is possible to show that some of the examples above — most importantly the critical density of the universe — would naturally take on the appropriate values. In this way, some of the universe’s fine-tuning seems to be explained away. Whether inflation occurs is a subject of debate. However, most theoretical physicists agree that some form of inflation took place, and more importantly this phenomenon could indeed explain many examples of fine-tuning. But what is not always included in the description of these inflation theories, is the extra fine-tuning the theories themselves require. In order to produce such an enormous inflationary rate of expansion — and to result in the necessary values for our universe’s critical density — inflation theories rely upon two or more parameters to take on particularly precise values. So precise are these values that the problem of fine-tuning remains and is only pushed one step back. As such, it only complicates the problem.

A second naturalist response is to suppose that the finely-tuned features of our world will someday show themselves to have been inevitable. That is, with an increase in our understanding of physics, it is possible that one day we will discover a Theory of Everything through which all other facts of physics could be explained. Such a theory might even explain why the universal constants and physical laws have to have such specific values. However, each of the finely-tuned features of our world put certain restrictions on the possibilities for the possible Theory of Everything. In the end, only a few specific theories would suffice, and this essentially results in a fine-tuning problem even for Theories of Everything. As such, it is inadequate.


3) The Multiverse

There is a final response, known as the multiverse hypothesis. The multiverse hypothesis claims that there are many other universes in addition to our own. Each of these has different properties, and different values of the basic constants of physics. If the number of these universes is extremely large, it would be less surprising that one of them would happen to provide the specific conditions for life. At first glance, the proposition of many other universes sounds impressively scientific. However, one must keep in mind that the likelihood of ever being able to observe evidence of another universe is extremely remote, since it is unlikely that information could ever pass from one universe to another. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that the process which produces all of these universes would randomly set all the physical parameters in such a way that every possibility is realized. It could be that there are constraints on the characteristics of these many universes and that the production process itself would have to be fine-tuned in some way to guarantee that we get enough variety of universes to account for our remarkable cosmic home. Additional problems arise with the details of proposing a multiverse, which are enumerated in the suggested readings below.

As such, as it stands the multiverse is mere conjecture and is highly likely to never be observed or in fact proven. A mere theory.

To me, none of these are even remotely compelling enough and given all the ample evidence of God elsewhere, God is the answer.
 
Well, no surprise that you'd quote Sir Fred Hoyle, given that he opposed the Big Bang theory, but this thread has already seen multiple iterations of the "implausibility does not necessarily correlate with probability" refrain.
 
OK, you don't need a God in your life. And? You see the point of my responses is not to dissuade you that you do need God in your life. I don't have the power to persuade you.

Let's say I had a larger-than-life personna and somehow you desired to emulate me. You decided, probably weakly, to commit to attending church for a short time. I doubt it would last more than a month. People are that fickle.

But with any intentional mentorship, where people see that another cares for them personally, not to gain a convert, but out of respect and friendship, then there's a good chance that many conversations happen over supper and a beer in front of a roasting fire. After a time, the relating of experiences results in commonality. Some of the Other's ideas no longer seem so daft...on both sides. Affinity happens.

It's in that process that people risk faith, whether for Islam, Atheism, or Christianity.
My point is not to persuade you that atheism is correct, merely to give you food for thought. I presume that you'd want to understand how atheists think about things and why they do. I consider a friendly discussion the proper means to do so.

I also like to see how you approach certain things. I'm certainly not trying to convert you but it might be nice if you came to a better understanding and respect for atheists.

I would say though that I never converted to atheism, I just questioned God and couldn't fathom the proposition of faith. I think I get it better now, and I respect it more, but ultimately I think it's incorrect.
 
Well, no surprise that you'd quote Sir Fred Hoyle, given that he opposed the Big Bang theory, but this thread has already seen multiple iterations of the "implausibility does not necessarily correlate with probability" refrain.

Implausibility does require an explanation. Otherwise, there'd be nothing remarkable if a tornado left a perfectly working Lamborghini in its wake after rampaging through a junk yard. Why is it remarkable? Because the probability of it happening by chance is so remote that it is 0 for all intends and purposes. Fine-tuning of the universe is even more remarkable.
 
Atheist churches are coming into existence because they're finally getting this Christian paradigm and tweeking it to their own belief system.

Where do I find one of these atheist churches? What kind of prayer service is there? Are there priests? Are there scientists? Is there a monthly membership fee? Is it a hate group and/or extremist group? Is it maybe just confused teenagers?

All these questions and more come to mind..
 
Where do I find one of these atheist churches? What kind of prayer service is there? Are there priests? Are there scientists? Is there a monthly membership fee? Is it a hate group and/or extremist group? Is it maybe just confused teenagers?

All these questions and more come to mind..


Link to video.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...edians-popularized-movement-earlier-year.html
Spoiler :
It looked like a typical Sunday morning at any mega-church. Several hundred people, including families with small children, packed in for more than an hour of rousing music, an inspirational sermon, a reading and some quiet reflection. The only thing missing was God.

Nearly three dozen gatherings dubbed 'atheist mega-churches' by supporters and detractors have sprung up around the U.S. and Australia - with more to come - after finding success in Great Britain earlier this year. The movement fueled by social media and spearheaded by two prominent British comedians is no joke.

On Sunday, the inaugural Sunday Assembly in Los Angeles, Calif. attracted several hundred people bound by their belief in non-belief. Similar gatherings in San Diego, Nashville, New York and other U.S. cities have drawn hundreds of atheists seeking the camaraderie of a congregation without religion or ritual.

The founders, British duo Sanderson Jones and Pippa Evans, are currently on a tongue-in-cheek '40 Dates, 40 Nights' tour around the U.S. and Australia to drum up donations and help launch new Sunday Assemblies. They hope to raise more than $800,000 that will help atheists launch their pop-up congregations around the world. So far, they have raised about $50,000.

They don't bash believers but want to find a new way to meet like-minded people, engage in the community and make their presence more visible in a landscape dominated by faith.


http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/0...h-first-atheist-church-alberta_n_2583930.html
Spoiler :
For Korey Peters, deconverting from Christianity to atheism opened a new set of doors - the doors to Calgary's first atheist church.

The unusual idea that grew into Calgary's atheist congregation came to the former Christian when he realized he longed for the sense of community and guidance that comes from being part of a church. But what he didn't miss was all the "the horror, ignorance and superstition," wrote Peters in a guest blog for thinkbig.com.

In 2006, Peters was in the process of leaving behind his fundamentalist Christian beliefs when he moved to the U.K. with his wife. He made good on an off-the-cuff promise he had previously vowed to her -- if they moved overseas he would join her in singing in a church choir.

"We were quickly integrated into the most lovely group of people you'd ever want to meet. I'd never had such an enjoyable time at church! When we returned home (Calgary), we began attending a local Anglican church and singing in the choir there. Here I was, a recent atheist now attending church more than I had when I was a Christian."

All of this got Peters thinking: Why couldn't atheists have a church, too?

"I began to miss the church experience myself...and I thought 'Oh, it would be a good idea to have a church for the non-religious,'" Peters said in a recent interview with HuffPost Live.


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...nting-godless-congregations-around-the-world/
 
My point is not to persuade you that atheism is correct, merely to give you food for thought. I presume that you'd want to understand how atheists think about things and why they do. I consider a friendly discussion the proper means to do so.

I also like to see how you approach certain things. I'm certainly not trying to convert you but it might be nice if you came to a better understanding and respect for atheists.

I would say though that I never converted to atheism, I just questioned God and couldn't fathom the proposition of faith. I think I get it better now, and I respect it more, but ultimately I think it's incorrect.

I'd say that it was very normal to encounter and engage with atheists in government, at university, at work, etc all thoughout the seventies through the nineties with really no uproar.

Things did start to get worse with constant attempts by atheists to restrict municipal displays for Christmas during this period. I seldom heard any sermons on those evil atheists. If anything I heard talks about how Christians were failing a segment of the population by not making the Gospel more compelling for them.

It wasn't a competition in the world of ideas back then. In fact, most atheists couldn't be bothered for if God is really a god, then Yahweh is no more important than Thor. Who cares if people celebrate or make a public display of either?

But then things got more and more in your face with some atheists creating lawsuits over all manner of tiny wall plaques in school over the Ten Commandments and the like. Really I could see their point, and ultimately it became an issue of, "Do we want Satanists to have equal time? Do we want Islamic symbolism anywhere in American public schools?"

But the relations between atheists and Christians really took a turn for the worse with Internet forums. The anonymity turned lots of people into trolls. Having been around since the inception with things like the GEnie network prior to the Internet being so mainstream (even in university settings) and with Bulletin Boards, then I'd say that relations got downright ugly.

Some atheists feel downtrodden based upon issues going back as far as medieval times. Come on! They raise a stink as if atheists can't work in politics. Well maybe in some particular part of the Bible Belt they may have a difficult time getting enough votes, but we have all manner of politicians of every possible belief system today. This isn't 1950.

Atheists say the same trite mockery ad nauseum about Christianity and it's remarkably intolerant. Can you imagine if Christians did that today? It's the few ardent people, really fanatical types of either belief system that are instigators. Meanwhile the rest of us flinch in these conversations. The time of rational discourse is seldom found on forums anymore.
 
HOLY CRAP it's an actual atheist church.

I wasn't expecting that. @Crackerbox, consider my questions answered

I have no idea what I think of an atheist church. Let people do what they want I guess, they don't seem to be doing any harm - the only thing I'm worried about is that 20 years from now people are going to think I'm a religious person when I say that I'm an atheist. And I'm totally not an organized religion kinda guy. But then again, my petty lingustic/identification issue should probably be overruled by the principles of the freedom of religion. So I guess I'm fine with that as long as I get to complain about it.
 
If you base atheist-Christian relations based on internet forums you're going to get skewed results. I mean Kirk vs. Picard will inspire insane flames.

Anyway, I don't think think the municipal display lawsuits or anything are particularly problematic, the government shouldn't be making religious statements.

I dunno is there anything in particular you're up in arms about?

I think there's still a large contingent of Americans who completely don't understand and mistrust atheists in some nasty ways. So I think it's important to keep advocating for understanding.
 
If you base atheist-Christian relations based on internet forums you're going to get skewed results. I mean Kirk vs. Picard will inspire insane flames.

Anyway, I don't think think the municipal display lawsuits or anything are particularly problematic, the government shouldn't be making religious statements.

I dunno is there anything in particular you're up in arms about?

I think there's still a large contingent of Americans who completely don't understand and mistrust atheists in some nasty ways. So I think it's important to keep advocating for understanding.

It wasn't always so. Think, a lot of the politicians were putting up Christmas displays downtown to for the merchants because people were Christmas shopping. There was a tiny display of a nativity. 95% of it was entirely secular. The whole thing was a pagan approach to Christmas not any kind of religious display. The nativity was an afterthought. The same thing was true with Ten Commandment displays. There was a single Ten Commandment display in a high school in the seventies in one room...that taught the Bible as Literature. There wasn't a massive display.

But in response to the challenge, it threw gasoline on a fire. Some folks, particularly Baptists felt extremely irritable and there were the silly Ten Commandment signs (on the typical political stands that you see at election time) that suddenly were in 75% of the yards. What the heck was accomplished by that?

This caused the issue and conflict. It wasn't there prior, because remember that the early Seventies was largely a time of drug experimentation as well as a change in sexual mores. People might attend church who didn't believe just because their spouses compelled them, but a ton of guys were not in church. But after the Ten Commandments issue? Loads of guys were filling the pews. It helped church attendence immensely. Nothing goads attendence more than a period of stress to Christians.

These faux forum battles over atheists and Christians are outright stupid. It was in no way better after all of that. Think, it's a common phenomena for teenagers to skip church from age 17-25 and so prior to all of this, people just shrugged their shoulders and said, "Ah, it's a phase. They'll be back when they get married and have babies...". Sure enough it was like that. But after the Ten Commandment issue especially, well suddenly people acted like this routine phase was aberrant.

It was a bone headed operation by atheists. It solved nothing. I doubt it encouraged anyone to become an atheist who wasn't already going to be an atheist.

During that time of extreme liberalism, the universities were full of atheists professors. It's not like suddenly after making a stink did more get tenure or more get chair positions.

EDIT: I'll let you in on a little occupational secret. Some Christian pastors believe in a theology "Once Saved, Always Saved" I disagree with it naturally, but in this theology, if you can get someone to confess a belief in Jesus, then these pastors believe they've saved them for all time. This kind of pseudo-theology led to a real evangelical fervor to "get er done" by baptizing as many as possible to save their souls. So rather than an intentional witnessing process in which you attempted at longevity and an embrace of Christianity, you get a flash-in-the-pan routine dunking on Sunday morning. It's bad for believers.

Because people believe this heretical way of thinking (I guess I could profess Christ and then become a serial killer and rapist and do every vile thing), then there's a push by some Christian Internet forum posters to try to get as many people saved as possible. It's not a situation where they're caring about someone but an emotional instantaneous convertion they're after. It's why you might see the same people starting numerous topics on websites you frequent, because they've been told this this translates to fulfilling their Christian duty in this manner.
 
Hey, Unicorny, you ever gonna tell me what you think of my awesome proof that you actually believe you live in a multiverse?

I worked really hard on it and I think it's really cool.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13681884&postcount=302

Glanced at it. You lost me here:

So, I know you think that other universes aren't real. However you must agree that other universes do exist, but instead of existing in reality they exist as fictions in God's mind! We can agree on that can we not?

The word 'absurd' does not do the above rhetoric any kind of justice. Why would I agree that other universes exist when there is 0 evidence for them? Assuming God has a "mind" in the proverbial sense, we exist as a reality in God's mind? Other realities or fictions exist in God's mind?

When did you get to perform a lobotomy on God's mind and know exactly what fiction or realities exist in God's mind? Or did perform a CT-scan?

Please enlighten us.
 
Glanced at it. You lost me here:



The word 'absurd' does not do the above rhetoric any kind of justice. Why would I agree that other universes exist when there is 0 evidence for them? Assuming God has a "mind" in the proverbial sense, we exist as a reality in God's mind? Other realities or fictions exist in God's mind?

When did you get to perform a lobotomy on God's mind and know exactly what fiction or realities exist in God's mind? Or did perform a CT-scan?

Please enlighten us.
I encourage you to try to understand my argument. So bear with me for a few posts.

In that passage I'm arguing that god has imagined other universes that aren't real. They are fictions in His mind. They do exist but as concepts in the same way Narnia exists in books.

I don't think you should find that objectionable, after all how could God fine-tune the universe if He didn't think about what universes with other parameters would be like? He surely has concepts of other universes in his mind.
 
Some atheists feel downtrodden based upon issues going back as far as medieval times. Come on! They raise a stink as if atheists can't work in politics. Well maybe in some particular part of the Bible Belt they may have a difficult time getting enough votes, but we have all manner of politicians of every possible belief system today. This isn't 1950.

Atheists say the same trite mockery ad nauseum about Christianity and it's remarkably intolerant. Can you imagine if Christians did that today? It's the few ardent people, really fanatical types of either belief system that are instigators. Meanwhile the rest of us flinch in these conversations. The time of rational discourse is seldom found on forums anymore.

You make a lot of good points here, but remember that the situation you describe is very American. Christianity is still by far the dominant religion in America. Those who are not Christians, for whatever reason, are in a minority. You say that you have politicians of every possible belief system, but would a non-Christian have any chance of becoming president? Would Ed Miliband have a hope, or for that matter Clement Attlee (quite apart from their politics)? In these circumstances, tempers are inevitably high on both sides. In most other places in the western world, Christianity is far less entrenched. In Britain most people simply don't know or care very much about this sort of thing, whether they're atheists or not. I think that while there's still plenty of vitriol floating around the internet, as there is on every topic, there's far less in real life. People like Dawkins aren't representative.

The word 'absurd' does not do the above rhetoric any kind of justice. Why would I agree that other universes exist when there is 0 evidence for them? Assuming God has a "mind" in the proverbial sense, we exist as a reality in God's mind? Other realities or fictions exist in God's mind?

When did you get to perform a lobotomy on God's mind and know exactly what fiction or realities exist in God's mind? Or did perform a CT-scan?

Please enlighten us.

See here. If Perfection's talking nonsense here, he's in good company.

Thomas Aquinas said:
God knows all things whatsoever that in any way are. Now it is possible that things that are not absolutely, should be in a certain sense. For things absolutely are which are actual; whereas things which are not actual, are in the power either of God Himself or of a creature, whether in active power, or passive; whether in power of thought or of imagination, or of any other manner of meaning whatsoever. Whatever therefore can be made, or thought, or said by the creature, as also whatever He Himself can do, all are known to God, although they are not actual. And in so far it can be said that He has knowledge even of things that are not.

Thomas Aquinas said:
Ideas are types existing in the divine mind, as is clear from Augustine (On Eighty-Three Questions 46). But God has the proper types of all things that He knows; and therefore He has ideas of all things known by Him.
 
Assuming God has a "mind" in the proverbial sense, we exist as a reality in God's mind? Other realities or fictions exist in God's mind?

I'll point out for the umpteenth time, that your precious argument from fine-tuning requires that you be able to imagine alternate universes: all of those formed by different values for the various constants. Is your mind better than God's?
 
Very improbable since since a straightforward interpretation of the evidence points in favor of an intelligent creator. An analogy would be asserting in the belief that a tornado could leave behind a perfectly working Lamborghini in mint condition whilst having rampaged through a yard of junk parts.

No, a better analogy would be a tornado going through a junk yard and leaving a random heap of bits. And then someone coming along and saying: "The chances of this bit of junk landing exactly here, and this bit of junk landing exactly here - " and so on and so on - "and that bit of junk landing exactly there are so staggeringly minuscule that someone must have been behind it."

You see, a perfectly working Lamborghini differs from a random pile of junk because it's something that we know normally comes into existence as a result of design. Your analogy would be appropriate only if we we knew that a universe of the kind we live in normally comes into existence as a result of design. But of course that's precisely what you're trying to argue for. So your argument assumes its conclusion in its premises, making it invalid.

But what is not always included in the description of these inflation theories, is the extra fine-tuning the theories themselves require. In order to produce such an enormous inflationary rate of expansion — and to result in the necessary values for our universe’s critical density — inflation theories rely upon two or more parameters to take on particularly precise values. So precise are these values that the problem of fine-tuning remains and is only pushed one step back. As such, it only complicates the problem.

No, it doesn't. I explained this before. The whole point of the fine-tuning argument is that the universe in which we live is, supposedly, peculiarly well-suited for life. The slightest difference to any of the various constants would, we are told, render life impossible. But once you start talking about the parameters underlying the inflation mechanism, you're now talking about a system which isn't particularly fine-tuned to produce biogenic universes - it's just "fine-tuned" to produce universes at all, of which some will inevitably be biogenic.

Besides, if inflation theories are just pushing fine-tuning back a stage, one can say exactly the same of God. Why can't we say that God, if he exists, is "fine-tuned" to be willing and capable of producing a biogenic universe, and that this "fine-tuning" itself requires explanation? You haven't given a good reason why God is an appropriate place to stop in our search for explanations but no rival theory is.

As such, as it stands the multiverse is mere conjecture and is highly likely to never be observed or in fact proven. A mere theory.

Again, just like God. However, the multiverse hypothesis is superior to the God hypothesis in that it involves positing only things of the same kind as things we already know to exist. i.e. we know that one universe exists, so positing the existence of other universes at least doesn't require us to believe in anything weird. The number of kinds of entities remains the same. Whereas the God hypothesis involves positing the existence of something unlike anything else we know of. It's an ontologically more promiscuous theory in that it requires us to imagine not merely additional entities but additional kinds of entities, which otherwise we wouldn't have any reason to believe in. The multiverse theory is therefore more parsimonious and more plausible.


Anyway, I gave an alternative explanation for fine-tuning ages ago on this thread, which grants for the sake of argument that fine-tuning is something that needs explanation in the first place (even though really it doesn't), and manages to explain it without invoking God or anything of the kind. Until you explain why that explanation doesn't work, the fine-tuning argument doesn't even start to get off the ground.

To me, none of these are even remotely compelling enough and given all the ample evidence of God elsewhere, God is the answer.

Now that might be a reasonable point. If there were indeed plenty of other really good evidence for God, then one might be able to say that God is a reasonable explanation for fine-tuning; or, at the very least, that a fine-tuned universe is consistent with God's existence. The problem is, such evidence doesn't exist.
 
You make a lot of good points here, but remember that the situation you describe is very American. Christianity is still by far the dominant religion in America. Those who are not Christians, for whatever reason, are in a minority. You say that you have politicians of every possible belief system, but would a non-Christian have any chance of becoming president? Would Ed Miliband have a hope, or for that matter Clement Attlee (quite apart from their politics)? In these circumstances, tempers are inevitably high on both sides. In most other places in the western world, Christianity is far less entrenched. In Britain most people simply don't know or care very much about this sort of thing, whether they're atheists or not. I think that while there's still plenty of vitriol floating around the internet, as there is on every topic, there's far less in real life. People like Dawkins aren't representative.
.
Not only is President Obama highly likely not to be a Christian (he's praised Islam far more and doesn't attend church save for photo ops), there are scores and scores of people in Congress who likewise are not Christians. There are non-believers who've been on the Supreme Court as well as lesser courts who determine the legality of the laws.

As such, there isn't a preponderance of self-professed Christians in American politics. It's a non-issue for the American people as a whole.

Tolerance of the practice of ideas is the way to Peace. We can argue the various arguments for the existence of God, or argue the merits of it, or argue the sacred text, or argue the logic of it. However if we just argue about our differences of nonbelief and belief, and bad mouth the caliber of the Other strictly on ridiculous guidelines such as these, then it's like arguing people with different color earwax are correct and the others are idiots.

If God exists, and you choose not to believe, it's not my business. I can care and try to help you as long as I don't insist you believe what I say. If you choose not to believe, then you shouldn't be able to impose that disbelief as the natural state of society either. As 99% of the time in a public setting it's nonsecular, and since we maintain free speech, and even honor it in academic centers as a matter of academic freedom, then if someone chooses to say a prayer before a city council meeting (for one minute) is an expression of that free speech, just as saying in a city council meeting that we shouldn't give a tax abatement to that group because they are a spiritual one. Both are expressing free speech.

To chose otherwise is censorship. It's particularly bad in education and politics. There can't be a fostering of critical thinking in education unless we are somewhat unfettered within Reason, but especially in politics where disperate minority groups and majority groups acquire political positions.

Could anyone imagine the case where atheists were disallowed from speaking about their nonbelief in an educational or political setting? There would be hell to pay.

When we apply the beliefs of nonexistence of God and the beliefs of existence of God upon society in such a way as to limit the speech of either, then we're saying one is disallowed based upon the current political climate. What lunacy.

We're strong enough in our beliefs to take criticism and not to expect the Other to yield to us because it hurts our sensibilities.
 
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