The fine-tuning argument for God's existence

[Sommerswerd]

That is really interesting Can you explain a little more what you mean?

EDIT:

<nvm>

Aw, nvm I guess you don't want to talk about it

 

[Borachio]

Yes. Um. I'm sorry about that, Mr Werd.

It was maybe just a little too interesting.

 

[Crackerbox]

That's not quite the way it's happened to me. For me it's been more a bodily kind of knowledge. Twice my body gave me unmistakable signs that a relationship was at an end, before I knew it rationally. It was really quite spooky. The first time I didn't even know what it meant.

If our heart is healthy, then I think most everyone considers that God might be real. It's probably an innate idea and why spirituality develops in nearly every history of particular people.

If our heart is damaged by abuse in childhood or as adults through criminal activity, then that sense from our heart is stunted and unable to feel faith.

If our heart is damaged by poor choices that are not wholesome, then this blocks our ability to have loving relationships.

Some people would say they had a visceral response. It's the same thing. Your gut told you that God was at least a remote possibility. From a human relations standpoint, your heart told you that relationship with the Other was a remote possibility. You either follow your heart or not.

If you try to find evidence in any relationship that it's not constantly supportive, then you'll find intellectual rationales for not entering fully in a relationship, for no one is perfect, either you or the Other. Evidence seeking is not the way to arrive at an analysis on love matters.

However we do analyze what happens in our experiences by self-reflection as well as seeking counselors to help us process that information. When someone tells you what to feel, then they're usually charlatans. Only you can know how you feel.

You can't give someone enlightenment. You can say, "I believe so and so. This author says this..." but you can't fill up their heart or mind or make them live in total agreement in their spirit to a commitment to that relationship.

Arguing for God's existence is like persuading someone that the Other doesn't love you, their love isn't genuine, you shouldn't be in a relationship because you're immature, whatever. Instead a counselor generally says, "What do you feel that means? What do you think about that?" and so the person comes to a more enlightened point of view for only they can know themselves. Counselors are not mindreaders.

What could be worse than to give cheap advice on love relationships to another i.e. "You should divorce yourself from that Other!" for you're listening to the momentary fickle written responses of the poster, and don't know them intimately, and even then you can't make them wise in their relationships.

 

[warpus]

If our heart is healthy, then I think most everyone considers that God might be real. It's probably an innate idea and why spirituality develops in nearly every history of particular people.

Are you saying that people who do not believe that God exists have .. damaged hearts?

 

[Borachio]

Well, Mr Box. You certainly have an interesting take on all this.

 

[El_Machinae]

Not necessarily, Warpus. It's more that "it's very common for healthy people to have an instinct for God". It doesn't imply the opposite is true.

 

[bhavv]

If your brain is healthy and correctly functional, you cannot possibly believe in God.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

If your brain is healthy and correctly functional, you cannot possibly believe in God.

Too bad you cant tell that to Einstein...lol

 

[Perfection]

Einstein didn't believe in God the way most people do. His conception of God was very impersonal (I think it was much more like my reverence and awe of the mathematics of the universe). He had a very different relationship to his God then Crackerbox has with his.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Yes. Um. I'm sorry about that, Mr Werd.

It was maybe just a little too interesting.

No prob, after I thought about it a little I think I got it and understand why its too interesting. Sorry

 

[Borachio]

That's interesting. But are you sure, Mr Perfection?

I'd agree that as a physicist Einstein's conception of God was very impersonal.

But as a person? Who knows? The way he behaved could be said to be consonant with a personal God.

 

[Flying Pig]

I think Perfy's talking about phrases like 'God does not play dice', which are largely metaphorical and don't actually depend on believing 'God' to be comparable to a person.

 

[warpus]

Not necessarily, Warpus. It's more that "it's very common for healthy people to have an instinct for God". It doesn't imply the opposite is true.

It does imply that those who do not believe in God might have a damaged heart. It's a bit offensive if you ask me. I mean, imagine if I said: "If you have a healthy heart and mind, you tend to understand that God doesn't exist." - offensive to religious people, no? It would imply that they might just have something wrong with their noggin or their heart.

 

[Perfection]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Albert_Einstein

 

[Borachio]

Good link!

Enough for me the mystery of the eternity of life, and the inkling of the marvellous structure of reality, together with the single-hearted endeavour to comprehend a portion, be it never so tiny, of the reason that manifests itself in nature.

I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance&#8212;but for us, not for God.

 

[El_Machinae]

Oh, sure, Warpus. The implication can be drawn. But one needn't do so. It can be easily read in a way that's not offensive.

 

[Borachio]

I'm not sure how. I feel someone's got to come out of this badly.

 

[Perfection]

I'm not sure how. I feel someone's got to come out of this badly.

Everyone loses: Atheists are abnormal, theists are wrong.

 

[Crackerbox]

Are you saying that people who do not believe that God exists have .. damaged hearts?

If your brain is healthy and correctly functional, you cannot possibly believe in God.

It does imply that those who do not believe in God might have a damaged heart. It's a bit offensive if you ask me. I mean, imagine if I said: "If you have a healthy heart and mind, you tend to understand that God doesn't exist." - offensive to religious people, no? It would imply that they might just have something wrong with their noggin or their heart.

NO! People who have damaged hearts will hopefully try to heal their hearts, right? There's no implied connection that a damaged heart means that someone cannot accept God, for lots of people when harmed by events of their own making, or because of suffering...encountered God. Nothing could be more further than the Truth of suffering as a catalyst to being found by God.

The point is that rationalists claim they cannot find God, or lack evidence of proof of God (which is what this topic is about), and I'm saying that they're using the wrong part of their being to be found by God. All relationships come through the heart. Only some really cold person sets up a relationship based upon logic, "Come dear, be my spouse because it is logical. Love isn't important."

You know there's a secret in the Bible why people can't find God. We could talk about it, but you'd probably simply say that I need concrete evidence of a Supreme Being. God shows through the Bible that you have to be called by God, and Jesus specifically says this. But most people don't know why some people can't ever discover God. They assume it's freely given to all. Salvation is freely given to those who call upon Jesus name, but not all are called.

The secret has been right there all along, in the most likely place to find it, but most skip over this in John 3. See the blue highlighted part.

Spoiler :

The New Birth
3 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, &#8220;Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.&#8221;

3 Jesus answered and said to him, &#8220;Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.&#8221;

4 Nicodemus said to Him, &#8220;How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother&#8217;s womb and be born?&#8221;

5 Jesus answered, &#8220;Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, &#8216;You must be born again.&#8217; 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.&#8221;

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, &#8220;How can these things be?&#8221;

10 Jesus answered and said to him, &#8220;Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 &#8220;He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.&#8221;

John the Baptist Exalts Christ
22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized. 24 For John had not yet been thrown into prison.

25 Then there arose a dispute between some of John&#8217;s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, &#8220;Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified&#8212;behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!&#8221;

27 John answered and said, &#8220;A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, &#8216;I am not the Christ,&#8217; but, &#8216;I have been sent before Him.&#8217; 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom&#8217;s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.&#8221;

A lot of skeptics will want to believe in God by evidence, but rather it's a relationship based upon faith. But the secret is that we cannot find God and approach the Light and so be called because of FEAR of our deeds being disclosed. If we freely admit that we sinned, not to be condemned by our actions, but rather that we "missed the target", and ask to approach the Light, not fearing our deeds that cannot earn our way into Heaven, then we can be be called. Some people hate the Light and so cannot approach it. It's relational. You can't have a relationship with God unless you do this. You can argue and look for logical proofs that make sense. You can try all you might to dissuade others and hence risk making a little one stumble in their faith (and so eternal damnation), but you can't find God. No one can unless you do this.

The relationship between Humanity and God is not equal. It's a servant to the Master. It's about humility and asking for forgiveness, and desiring to know God. This is what opens the door to the Call of Yahweh. It's such a small thing that offers Grace and an Eternal reward that begins the very moment in the room where you read these words. Anyone can have it if willing to accept the words and not demand logical evidence.

If you demand logical evidence for God, you won't find it, and you'll be lost forever. Just as you can't find logical evidence for Love in a relationship, you can't find God by logical evidence.

This makes perfect sense. If you hate the Light, just as if you hate the Other, then why would you think they would give you the time of day? That love of darkness and fearing the darkness in your soul impedes your approach to the Light. It's elementary and people will wander around lost, look in books, attend lectures, meditate, and feel frustrated that God won't speak to them.

 

[Borachio]

I'm a little confused by all that, tbh. You seem to now go one way and then immediately veer on another.

you can't find God. No one can unless you do this.

This in particular has me confused.

I think your general drift is good, though. If I've understood anything. I'm not saying it's correct, just that it could be coherent. As far as I can tell.