The Good State of Offtopic

Illegal immigration became a larger concern after 9/11 and south of the border drug wars and military despots resulted in waves of refugees and criminal activity

"We simply cannot allow people to pour into the U.S., undetected, undocumented, unchecked and circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently, lawfully to become immigrants in this country" - Obama (Verified Fascist)

Did you vote for the fascist, Lex?
 
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Well, I honestly believe that you continuing to believe this is actively helping the Republicans to destroy multiparty democracy. We are rapidly reaching the point where people who are in denial about the nature of the Republican Party are nearly as responsible for its evil as its committed supporters.

Well if you want me to change my belief you have give a good argument as to why, which you haven't. I'm of the opinion that your type of rhetoric, like calling all republicans fascist, in addition to be factually incorrect by any reasonable analysis of the term, is almost entirely harmful. The moment you stop playing political games, and start looking at people as individuals, you might start to see a lot of things very differently. The people struggling across the country who looked to trump as their savior have real problems and real struggles. These people were told by the democratic party essentially "shut up, racist". What did you think would happen? They would sit there quietly while being mocked and spit on after already being defeated? If you really think the Republican party is fascist, then maybe it's time to ask yourself why? Are times for these people really that bad? Have they truly descended this far? How have we as a society failed this miserably to address their problems that they would resort to this kind of madness?

Having a group of people you care about and a group of people you hate makes you basically no better than a republican.

The "terrible job" they do covering him is that they are far too lenient with him. His supporters believe that anything less than hero-worship is a reason to be upset.

The false reports, errors, and mischaracterizations are an almost daily occurrence and completely unnecessary given what he actually does say and do.

Well, you are just wrong. Mass electoral support for fascism has never come from people who are committed fascist ideologues. There were millions of people who joined and voted for the Nazi Party for reasons other than sincere commitment to its ideology. We still call those people "Nazis" without all this hand-wringing about nuance.

Yes, Lexicus, if they are part of the Nazi Party you can call them Nazis. That makes sense.
 
Yes, Lexicus, if they are part of the Nazi Party you can call them Nazis. That makes sense.

The question is whether it was fair to call them Nazis before they joined the party. It seems reasonable to say that they already held the position, so the descriptor is apt. Now, extend that into current day fascist movements. They may not have a readily identified 'fascism party' they can openly declare for, but if they hold the position are they not still fascists?
 
Well if you want me to change my belief you have give a good argument as to why, which you haven't.

You just haven't been convinced by the argument, but let's be honest here, you weren't ever going to be convinced by any argument.

The people struggling across the country who looked to trump as their savior have real problems and real struggles. These people were told by the democratic party essentially "shut up, racist". What did you think would happen? They would sit there quietly while being mocked and spit on after already being defeated? If you really think the Republican party is fascist, then maybe it's time to ask yourself why? Are times for these people really that bad? Have they truly descended this far? How have we as a society failed this miserably to address their problems that they would resort to this kind of madness?

First of all, I criticize the Democratic Party's approach to politics on exactly this basis all the time. Seriously, ask any other poster here, I criticize the Democrats almost more than I criticize the Republicans. Before the 2016 election I was actually afraid that Clinton's embrace of neoliberalism would precipitate a fascist crisis if the economy went south during her term in office.

That said, plenty of people joined or supported the Nazi Party because of the very real failure of the Weimar institutions to deliver anything for them. Here's the thing: while on one level I believe that it's only by solving these "legitimate grievances" that we ultimately put a stop to fascism as a politcal force, the fact that there are legitimate grievances is completely irrelevant to the immediate problem presented by the emergence of fascism in the Republican Party. The fascists need to be stopped, not "understood" or catered to. Nazi Germany needed to surrender uncondtiionally: similarly what needs to be accomplished today is the utter destruction of the Republican Party in its current form. If the Republicans want to be a parliamentary party that competes for a majority coalition within a liberal democracy, that's fine, but that is not the Republican Party that exists today. The Republican Party as its exists today is the largest obstacle standing in the way of the reforms that need to be made to prevent the emergence of fascism (unfortunately the second-largest obstacle is the Democratic Party).

There is additionally a huge empirical problem with this "they're only fascists because they're SUFFERING" line, which is that there are a number of populations in this country who are suffering far more than anyone who voted for Trump and they overwhelmingly vote Democrat. Poor black people overwhelmingly vote Democrat. Poor immigrants overwhelmingly vote Democrat. Hell, the average income of Trump's voters was higher than the average income of Hillary's voters. And the demographic makeup of Trump's coalition was not "struggling people," it was "white people."

This elevation of the suffering of white people to some greater importance than the suffering of other groups who nonetheless voted for the "status quo candidate" in Hillary Clinton is yet another example of how this country systematically treats the perspectives of white people as more important than the perspectives of non-white people.

Yes, Lexicus, if they are part of the Nazi Party you can call them Nazis. That makes sense.

So, I can call the Republican voters fascists for voting for a fascist party then? That must make sense too.

The question is whether it was fair to call them Nazis before they joined the party. It seems reasonable to say that they already held the position, so the descriptor is apt. Now, extend that into current day fascist movements. They may not have a readily identified 'fascism party' they can openly declare for, but if they hold the position are they not still fascists?

I didn't make it clear, but I was mainly referring to the millions of people who simply voted for the Nazis without joining them. Would we call them Nazis too? Would referring to them as "Nazis" in passing draw all this handwringing about how I need to see people as individuals and they have legitimate complaints? Permit me to doubt it.
 
You just haven't been convinced by the argument, but let's be honest here, you weren't ever going to be convinced by any argument.

Sure I could be convinced by a good argument. I can be as stubborn as the next guy but I try to keep an open mind about stuff like this. Your argument was bad. Basically the logic would mean almost everyone is fascist.

That said, plenty of people joined or supported the Nazi Party because of the very real failure of the Weimar institutions to deliver anything for them. Here's the thing: while on one level I believe that it's only by solving these "legitimate grievances" that we ultimately put a stop to fascism as a politcal force, the fact that there are legitimate grievances is completely irrelevant to the immediate problem presented by the emergence of fascism in the Republican Party. The fascists need to be stopped, not "understood" or catered to. Nazi Germany needed to surrender uncondtiionally: similarly what needs to be accomplished today is the utter destruction of the Republican Party in its current form. If the Republicans want to be a parliamentary party that competes for a majority coalition within a liberal democracy, that's fine, but that is not the Republican Party that exists today. The Republican Party as its exists today is the largest obstacle standing in the way of the reforms that need to be made to prevent the emergence of fascism (unfortunately the second-largest obstacle is the Democratic Party).

I like the bold part, even if you mostly undermined after. Ideas of fascism do need to be defeated, I agree with that.

There is additionally a huge empirical problem with this "they're only fascists because they're SUFFERING" line, which is that there are a number of populations in this country who are suffering far more than anyone who voted for Trump and they overwhelmingly vote Democrat. Poor black people overwhelmingly vote Democrat. Poor immigrants overwhelmingly vote Democrat. Hell, the average income of Trump's voters was higher than the average income of Hillary's voters. And the demographic makeup of Trump's coalition was not "struggling people," it was "white people."

Yeah it's not suffering alone, of course. But, given a certain number of specific conditions surrounding the suffering, you get fascism. The broader point is that extreme situations produce extreme reactions. Some people fight, and some people flight, but the reason they are doing anything is the suffering. Regarding the demographics, yes, more white than it is suffering. But the point is, with Trump, he got much more of the struggling vote than past republicans which you can point to as a major reason he won.

This elevation of the suffering of white people to some greater importance than the suffering of other groups who nonetheless voted for the "status quo candidate" in Hillary Clinton is yet another example of how this country systematically treats the perspectives of white people as more important than the perspectives of non-white people. The reason so many whites voted for Trump is because of simple racism but it's also the product of different expectations. People in this country who have been victimized by racism their whole lives have much lower expectations than the group that has been dominant. White people tend to internalize meritocratic and just-world narratives to a much greater degree than non-whites, and this obviously has a psychological effect because the world is not just and we do not live in a meritocratic society.

I think boiling down to racism is a weak answer. Yeah, people are racist, always have been. Why did so many Obama voters vote for Trump? Racism doesn't answer that question, not in a satisfactory way.

I didn't make it clear, but I was mainly referring to the millions of people who simply voted for the Nazis without joining them. Would we call them Nazis too? Would referring to them as "Nazis" in passing draw all this handwringing about how I need to see people as individuals and they have legitimate complaints? Permit me to doubt it.

I wouldn't have a huge problem if you called someone who voted for the republican party a republican, but maybe strictly speaking it isn't necessarily true. I don't really think that is the point. In my mind the Nazi party was clearly fascist in the policies and principles they supported, so calling members of the party fascists is completely legit. I disagree with your assessment of the republican party as fascist and so I disagree with you calling all republicans fascists.

The individuals point is more about caring for people, and in that respect it would extend to actual Nazis. The methods might be different, and certain ideas there must be defeated, but I think the whole loving your enemies idea does extend to them. I want to see them change, to care about the people they hate, and to have their own struggles and problems solved.

Random thought here, have you seen "White Right: Meeting the Enemy" by Deeyah Khan? It's absolutely fascinating. If you haven't I would really recommend checking it out.
 
But the point is, with Trump, he got much more of the struggling vote than past republicans which you can point to as a major reason he won.

He didn't, actually, though.

I think boiling down to racism is a weak answer. Yeah, people are racist, always have been. Why did so many Obama voters vote for Trump? Racism doesn't answer that question, not in a satisfactory way.

I think it does. Obama was infinitely superior to Trump along every imaginable dimension. Voting for Obama and then Trump doesn't disprove the racism thing at all. It proves that in the eyes of those voters, black people need to do four times the work for one-fourth of the credit.

but I think the whole loving your enemies idea does extend to them.

Well, in case it was unclear I do not love my enemies. Not at all. Indeed, I actually believe that the Republican Party is probably more dangerous on balance than the Nazis were because of global warming: to paraphrase Noam Chomsky, not even the Nazis wanted to destroy the basis of all of organized human society. Global warming is by far the greatest challenge ever to confront the species, and the Republican attitude toward global warming is: accelerate it! Make it worse! This will be regarded by future generations as a crime without historical parallel.
 
How much do history classes in the US pay attention to the courtship between German and American Fascism between WW1 and WW2?

yes
How much attention do Dutch history classes pay attention to the courtship between Dutch intellectuals from left to right (incl. the Royal House) and global/German thoughts close to fascism or the same ?
How much attention to the disorder in the (genuine) Socialist party when we were occupied on the question to be part of the resistance (or not and take the same stance as towards the Dutch governments before WW2 or even agreeing to many considerations) ?
It is more than a page left out of our history classes at school. It is a chapter left out that comes too uncomfortable close to thoughts that never disappeared.
The emerging new enemy and cold war with the USSR swept it all under the tapestry.

IDK enough specifics about other European countries, but the time spirit of modernism driven by engineering got combined with an increased feeling of a nationstate.
 
He didn't, actually, though.

He did, actually, though.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html
https://www.nytimes.com/elections/2012/results/president/exit-polls.html

Highschool or less - Trump 51%, Romney 47%
Some college - Trump 52%, Romney 48%
Black - Trump 8%, Romney 6%
Hispanic/Latino - Trump 29%, Romney 27%
30K or under income - Trump 41%, Romney 35%

I think it does. Obama was infinitely superior to Trump along every imaginable dimension. Voting for Obama and then Trump doesn't disprove the racism thing at all. It proves that in the eyes of those voters, black people need to do four times the work for one-fourth of the credit.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Well, in case it was unclear I do not love my enemies. Not at all. Indeed, I actually believe that the Republican Party is probably more dangerous on balance than the Nazis were because of global warming: to paraphrase Noam Chomsky, not even the Nazis wanted to destroy the basis of all of organized human society. Global warming is by far the greatest challenge ever to confront the species, and the Republican attitude toward global warming is: accelerate it! Make it worse! This will be regarded by future generations as a crime without historical parallel.

It's been pretty clear that you don't, and it's unfortunate. The global warming argument ignores intentions and makes assumptions about the future and the certainty of scientific projections.
 
Well, in case it was unclear I do not love my enemies.
giphy.webp
 
Highschool or less - Trump 51%, Romney 47%
Some college - Trump 52%, Romney 48%
Black - Trump 8%, Romney 6%
Hispanic/Latino - Trump 29%, Romney 27%
30K or under income - Trump 41%, Romney 35%

That's more like "a bit more" than "much more." And only one of those categories clearly tracks with "struggling": 30K and under. And in much of the country, particularly those parts that delivered the strongest showing for Trump, 30K isn't exactly "struggilng" even if it's not affluent either.

It's been pretty clear that you don't, and it's unfortunate. The global warming argument ignores intentions and makes assumptions about the future and the certainty of scientific projections.

Personally I am looking forward to the day when prominent powerful people who "didn't believe" in global warming are literally lynched in the streets. Whether people who hindered climate action by blathering about "scientific uncertainty" and "making assumptions" will join them is yet to be seen.


Fail at what?
 
Immigrants do not have an inherent race, by the way.

Race is fiction so no one has an inherent race. That must mean that no one is really racist, right? There aren't any races to be racist against!
 
Personally I am looking forward to the day when prominent powerful people who "didn't believe" in global warming are literally lynched in the streets. Whether people who hindered climate action by blathering about "scientific uncertainty" and "making assumptions" will join them is yet to be seen.

This is kind of gross and a little troubling. There is philosophical room for skepticism about the fundamental assumptions of science, that isn't even mentioning the certainty of any scientific theory at any point in history, or the validity of a specific set of models on a specific issue.

Using "science" to push a political agenda, while longing for those who oppose this policy prescription based on "science" to be lynched in the streets. It sounds almost, I don't know what's the word, fascist?
 
Race is fiction so no one has an inherent race. That must mean that no one is really racist, right? There aren't any races to be racist against!

If you're going to toss out nuance regarding immigration at least the quoted statement would be self-consistent.

To be fair the people of Mali vs Zambia are pretty different from each other, same with people from say Texas vs Sweden. Enough that concentration on skin pigmentation is asinine...but if you accept that it should be true consistently. Policies/practices that ignore this and lump vastly different individuals together as a "group" start looking bad fast.

At least with immigration some self-consistent reasoning can be applied that is not tied to race. You can set non-skin-pigment criteria for who gets in vs not.
 
If you're going to toss out nuance regarding immigration at least the quoted statement would be self-consistent.

The quoted statement is sarcastic because it's only people who believe in the reality of race (and thus are, in the most literal sense, racists) who say "x isn't a race, so people who don't like x can't be racist!"

This is kind of gross and a little troubling. There is philosophical room for skepticism about the fundamental assumptions of science, that isn't even mentioning the certainty of any scientific theory at any point in history, or the validity of a specific set of models on a specific issue.

Using "science" to push a political agenda, while longing for those who oppose this policy prescription based on "science" to be lynched in the streets. It sounds almost, I don't know what's the word, fascist?

Ironically, the closest historical parallel to what I'm envisioning was the wave of extralegal violence that engulfed Europe in the immediate aftermath of liberation from Nazi occupation. I suppose the people involved in that were fascists too eh?
 
The quoted statement is sarcastic because it's only people who believe in the reality of race (and thus are, in the most literal sense, racists) who say "x isn't a race, so people who don't like x can't be racist!"

The ocean is not a race.
 
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