The Good State of Offtopic

[Manfred Belheim]

Bullying via PM is common - and since it's against the rules to quote PMs in public, how can you criticize someone for not citing/quoting it?

He didn't criticise anyone for not citing/quoting bullying PMs any more than he criticised anyone for not showing evidence of the harassing messages that were sent written on banana skins.

 

[Akka]

Oh no! The claim isn't acceptable to you? That's truly unfortunate.

Not sure if you're deliberately ironic or are not realizing there is actual irony here.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

He didn't criticise anyone for not citing/quoting bullying PMs any more than he criticised anyone for not showing evidence of the harassing messages that were sent written on banana skins.

I did not accuse metatron of that. He addressed a point that I felt needed some clarification from the pov of people who have been bullied on this site.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Case by case is the answer, and I for one appreciate metatron's thoughts on the matter.

Me too, but I'm still going to smart off at him because that's what I do.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Thing is, @metatron, is there really such a thing as "objectively measured bullying"? People say crappy things to other people all the time. If one person "feels bullied" and another person with the same kind of crappy things being said to them doesn't "feel bullied" that, to me, is just to be expected. People respond differently to the same stimulus all the time, because we filter stimuli through experience. So where is the "objective judge" who can rule on what is or isn't bullying?

In the absence of such an objective judge, we have no practical alternative other than going with the feelings of the person involved. It doesn't matter what you think of what person A said to person B, and it doesn't matter what I think of it. All that matters is how person B feels about it and responds to it, and how person A responds to that. If person B says "I'm feeling bullied here," and the response from person A is basically "good," then we know what we have and actual examination of the particular words used isn't necessary.

 

[Hygro]

There is more than one way to bully someone on a forum and some of them are not public. Bullying via PM is common - and since it's against the rules to quote PMs in public, how can you criticize someone for not citing/quoting it?

Mary did not only feel bullied, but to those of us who have experienced online bullying ourselves, it is very apparent when it's happening to others. Some posts might as well have been neon signs.

I invite you to present those posts. I want to know.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

@Timsup2nothin
Of course it's incredibly complicated to the point where debate on borderline cases may prove unending.
Sure.

But there's a fundamental difference between a) us disagreeing in the evaluation of observable evidence b) us evaluating different sets of evidence (e.g. said PM angle) and c) someone being granted unilateral and near absolute power of definition.

But you haven't really presented any alternative. Substituting "well we can debate" for the missing "objective judge" doesn't really provide any practicality, because our debate will undoubtedly produce a different result than the next debate between different people, even if the crappy things being said are exactly the same.

So once again we are down to the crux of the situation. One person says " I feel bullied" and the other person doesn't say "oh, hey, not my intent, let me modify how I am presenting this," they just say "good" and keep on keeping on. As far as I'm concerned that person has clearly revealed their intentions and is eligible to be treated as a bully...even if they are saying some crappy thing that I consider to be so mundane as to not even be noticed if someone were saying it to me.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It is not shocking when someone is unwilling to provide academic citations about a subject that is predominantly about feelings.

She made false claims of bullying in defense of toxic posts that systemically discriminated against a group of people based on properties they can't control. When asked to back these claims, crickets.

What happened when this was pointed out? We get yet another example of doing exactly what was complained about...ignoring the points made, re-writing what was in the quote, addressing nothing, and doubling down on hypocrisy.

That's going to need some evidence to hold any credibility. Not feelings based on perception inconsistent with reality.

Oh no! The claim isn't acceptable to you? That's truly unfortunate.

It's random nonsense. Since there's an accusation it feels nicer to refute it than ignore it, but it has zero credibility as evidenced by the "discussion" regarding it .

Thing is, @metatron, is there really such a thing as "objectively measured bullying"? People say crappy things to other people all the time. If one person "feels bullied" and another person with the same kind of crappy things being said to them doesn't "feel bullied" that, to me, is just to be expected. People respond differently to the same stimulus all the time, because we filter stimuli through experience. So where is the "objective judge" who can rule on what is or isn't bullying?

You need standards for a word to have meaning. In this case the defense of the alleged "bullied" not only can't give halfway decent examples of it, but *isn't even willing to define bullying by one's own standards*. The answer to "so what constitutes bullying?" So far, the answer is nothing, or inferred from earlier posts "anything that's convenient to my narrative and nothing else".

There is more than one way to bully someone on a forum and some of them are not public. Bullying via PM is common - and since it's against the rules to quote PMs in public, how can you criticize someone for not citing/quoting it?

If someone actually PM'd her mean things I'd agree that's bullying and uncalled for. I hope if that happened she reported it at least.

Mary did not only feel bullied, but to those of us who have experienced online bullying ourselves, it is very apparent when it's happening to others. Some posts might as well have been neon signs.

This, on the other hand, has no credibility unless we can be linked to something that meets self-consistent standards for what "bullying" means.

 

[ulyssesSgrant]

@Timsup2nothin, I agree there is no ultimate objective measure, but there are clear cases on either side. The lack of an objective measure doesn't that doesn't mean you have to just go with how someone feels. There are lots of tools you have to evaluate the situation, and a lot of things to consider.

As an analogy, there isn't an objective measure of a great movie. Any attempt to try to define what those parameters are is probably a waste of time and someone could probably come up with counter examples. But some movies are still great, and others are not. Even though I can't define it, I'm more than happy to claim as a matter of fact that "Battlefield Earth" is not a great movie. It simply isn't. You might think it is, you might feel really strong that it is, but you're just wrong.

In that thread, Mary wasn't bullied. She might have felt that she was, she might think that she was, but she wasn't. I didn't see her bullied a single time by a single person. She stated her opinion, at times most people agreed, at other times many did not. She always had at least a couple people supporting her, and those who disagreed always disagreed with her ideas and claims.

All of you people suggesting that she was bullied, I've personally seen you disagree with someone on this forum in a much more aggressive way than anything Mary faced in that thread.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I did not accuse metatron of that. He addressed a point that I felt needed some clarification from the pov of people who have been bullied on this site.

Perhaps I misunderstood. It looked like you were asking him how he could criticise someone for not quoting or citing PMs when that would be against the rules, but I didn't see him actually making that criticism. If that's not what you meant then objection withdrawn.

 

[Berzerker]

well, bully for you

 

[Timsup2nothin]

All of you people suggesting that she was bullied, I've personally seen you disagree with someone on this forum in a much more aggressive way than anything Mary faced in that thread.

And I daresay you've seen most of us disagreed with in a much more aggressive way. And for myself, I've never felt bullied. That's my point regarding the reality that there is no objective standard available, so the only thing that works is checking intent...and the only way to check intent is to watch reaction once the question is raised.

Illustrative anecdote:

Spoiler :

One night I was on my way somewhere and stopped at a supermarket to pick up a couple things. It was after eleven, the parking lot was just about empty; my guess was just employee cars. So I could park in the first space of any row I wanted, and did. Hopped out and started across the traffic lanes that run across the front of the store.

There was a guy in a pickup truck coming along the front of the store. I did walk in front of him, with the assumed 'pedestrian right of way' that legally applied. I also knew that he could just go around me since I am hardly big enough to block a two lane path and he was the only moving car in the entire lot. He opted to keep coming, then brake fairly hard, and lay on his horn.

So, me being me, instead of continuing out of his path I stopped, made sure I was in front but close enough to sidestep him if he decided to be even stupider, and said "Hey, the only reason to lay on your horn like that is if you are just trying to piss me off. There's plenty of room so if you had somewhere to be you could have gone around without even slowing down." So, his response was to lay on his horn again.

Being a very patient sort and not wanting to misunderstand his intentions I said "One more time, the only reason to hit that horn is if you want to piss someone off just to see what happens."

When he hit the horn the third time I figured he had made his intentions crystal clear and went to work on his truck. I wasn't mad, it just seemed like what he wanted.

Again, the point is that if you tell someone "this is what results from your current course of action" and they continue that course of action they are making a very clear statement of their intentions and I see no reason not to give them the treatment such an intention deserves.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

And I daresay you've seen most of us disagreed with in a much more aggressive way. And for myself, I've never felt bullied. That's my point regarding the reality that there is no objective standard available, so the only thing that works is checking intent...and the only way to check intent is to watch reaction once the question is raised.

Illustrative anecdote:

Spoiler :

One night I was on my way somewhere and stopped at a supermarket to pick up a couple things. It was after eleven, the parking lot was just about empty; my guess was just employee cars. So I could park in the first space of any row I wanted, and did. Hopped out and started across the traffic lanes that run across the front of the store.

There was a guy in a pickup truck coming along the front of the store. I did walk in front of him, with the assumed 'pedestrian right of way' that legally applied. I also knew that he could just go around me since I am hardly big enough to block a two lane path and he was the only moving car in the entire lot. He opted to keep coming, then brake fairly hard, and lay on his horn.

So, me being me, instead of continuing out of his path I stopped, made sure I was in front but close enough to sidestep him if he decided to be even stupider, and said "Hey, the only reason to lay on your horn like that is if you are just trying to piss me off. There's plenty of room so if you had somewhere to be you could have gone around without even slowing down." So, his response was to lay on his horn again.

Being a very patient sort and not wanting to misunderstand his intentions I said "One more time, the only reason to hit that horn is if you want to piss someone off just to see what happens."

When he hit the horn the third time I figured he had made his intentions crystal clear and went to work on his truck. I wasn't mad, it just seemed like what he wanted.

Again, the point is that if you tell someone "this is what results from your current course of action" and they continue that course of action they are making a very clear statement of their intentions and I see no reason not to give them the treatment such an intention deserves.

It's an interesting story but I don't see how it's applicable to this case. Heck, you even actually told him a standard. It isn't an "objective" standard, but you stated it and applied it self-consistently...

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It's an interesting story but I don't see how it's applicable to this case. Heck, you even actually told him a standard. It isn't an "objective" standard, but you stated it and applied it self-consistently...

And when told by someone "I feel bullied here" I apply that same standard...and stop doing whatever I'm doing that makes them feel bullied. Unless my intent is to bully them further, in which case I make a note of what works on them and do it at every opportunity.

 

[Berzerker]

is that trolling?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

is that trolling?

Why do you ask?

 

[Berzerker]

to get an answer

 

[Timsup2nothin]

to get an answer

Was it one of those "I know the answer but want to see how you answer" questions, or a genuine "I'm ignorant of the subject and want information" questions?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Well, of course. PMs would be a different matter.
And if you tell me that Mary recieved PMs that were significantly and severely more abusive than criticism she faced on the open board, i accept that.
I may make discounts on account of all four parties involved in that game of telephone being human and whatnot.
But i accept that as an evidence based claim, even though the evidence isn't shown to me.

Like... the basis of the claim is concrete and observable. Never mind whether i have observed it. It's a claim on that basis, rather than based on feelings or something like that.

Just so that my thick self is up to speed: So something like this happened here?

Are you asking if bullying via PM has happened here? Yes. I've experienced it myself, from various sources, numerous times over the past 14 years. Did I report it? Yes, most times when it seemed likely that some remedy could be found (whether the remedy was found is a whole different case).

As for whether Mary was bullied via PM, I have not seen her PMs. However, she has stated receiving PMs that can be characterized as bullying. Given that we first became friends on another forum where she was stalked (took the moderators and admin staff to put an end to that; they've verified this), I have no reason not to believe her here.

My point is that whether we are referring to Mary or someone else, the fact is that bullying does occur via PM.

I invite you to present those posts. I want to know.

I invite you to re-read the threads in question. Or PM Mary herself and ask. She left OT, but still posts in the Civ section.

She made false claims of bullying in defense of toxic posts that systemically discriminated against a group of people based on properties they can't control. When asked to back these claims, crickets.

I've made it clear that I don't agree with everything she said. We disagree on the matter of "some" men vs. "all" men. So I will not presume to speak for her as to why she asserts that "all" men are the problem. I know a possible reason as she's discussed that in greater detail on another forum (not here, not IALS). But I don't think it's right that I should be the one to post about it here. It's her life experiences she's described, not mine.

As for "properties they can't control", please. It's behavior and thought patterns that are at issue, not basic anatomy. Behavior can be controlled, unless the person has some kind of disability (mental illness or condition such as Alzheimers or a brain injury that impairs thinking). Thought patterns can be dealt with through counseling and other kinds of therapy. So don't say that can't be controlled. It's not easy, but it's possible.

You need standards for a word to have meaning. In this case the defense of the alleged "bullied" not only can't give halfway decent examples of it, but *isn't even willing to define bullying by one's own standards*. The answer to "so what constitutes bullying?" So far, the answer is nothing, or inferred from earlier posts "anything that's convenient to my narrative and nothing else".

I agree that definitions are important, but there are many definitions not found on whatever your favorite online dictionary might be.

If someone actually PM'd her mean things I'd agree that's bullying and uncalled for. I hope if that happened she reported it at least.

Same here. Whether anything effective results from that is another issue.

This, on the other hand, has no credibility unless we can be linked to something that meets self-consistent standards for what "bullying" means.

Considering that I've been dealing with bullying on this site for the past 14 years pre-moderator, during my time as a moderator, and after my time as a moderator, how many hours do you have to read through it - the stuff still accessible, that is? Keep in mind that forum rules state that PMs may not be quoted in public, so there's a lot that cannot be linked or quoted.

In that thread, Mary wasn't bullied. She might have felt that she was, she might think that she was, but she wasn't. I didn't see her bullied a single time by a single person. She stated her opinion, at times most people agreed, at other times many did not. She always had at least a couple people supporting her, and those who disagreed always disagreed with her ideas and claims.

In your opinion, you mean. I'm not the only non-Mary person who perceived the <stuff> thrown at her as examples of bullying.

All of you people suggesting that she was bullied, I've personally seen you disagree with someone on this forum in a much more aggressive way than anything Mary faced in that thread.

With the same emotional and personal experience issues going on? I rather doubt that.

 

[Berzerker]

Was it one of those "I know the answer but want to see how you answer" questions, or a genuine "I'm ignorant of the subject and want information" questions?

I dont know the answer, thats why I asked.