The Great DoC 1.9 UHV Challenge

[iOnlySignIn]

New China game. E/E 3000 BC. First Asian game I played after the addition of Tibet & Barb Overhaul.

- I think the Barb Overhaul is good, from China's POV at least. Now you can get some nicely promoted troops and 1~2 GGs simply from fighting Barbs, and the AIs don't die as abjectly to Barbs as much. I kept both Persia & Rome alive into the Middle Ages with my customary peaceful relations and lucrative trade.

The Barb naming & spawn numbers are also very realistic. Kudos to Leoreth for that.

- Took Dunhuang & Samarkand because I'm sure of winning before the Mongol spawn. So I ended up having quite the historical border (plus historical ambitions of all dynasties combined) for China. They become quite decent cities with Silk Road (+5 , +15 ). Samarkand is also a useful staging point for my rookie cavalry troops, as endless Barbs (who will flip to Mongols eventually if I leave them alone) appear near Samarkand to provide XP and GG points.

I think it's only reasonable for China to be winnable before Mongol spawn, as Rome is winnable before the spawn of the Medieval Europeans, yes?

- Built only one Classical Wonder, GLH. The rest are simply not worth it. Perhaps even GLH is not needed. I built every non-Classical Wonder that did not require Islam. I think they are better in general.

- Founded Catholicism in Shanghai, built AP, Orthodoxy got founded in Xi'an. I think it's awesome, but is it intended?

- Founded Xi'an 1SE on Coal & Fuzhou on Stone. The other cities follow this plan. Fuzhou on Stone is perfect because it provides Stone without Bronze Working, and because it actually makes Fuzhou a very decent city right from the start that gives you a much better shot at GLH, even compared to Beijing.

- Killed the Maya for their canal as I learned from TD. Still did not kill any of the Europeans though. When England & Spain both volunteer to be my vassal (I had been running Secularism since the 1st century, no less), how could I refuse?

 

[Leoreth]

Were you the only civ with Catholicism when you built the AP?

 

[Meister Maggi]

I am no RFC expert, but I think this is a tough one. I did several reloads until getting a start where Babylon was at peace. I also got two additional chariots and a worker (?) from the start.

Shushan flipped, but Babylon did not declare, I tried anyway, since that was the only city (no copper connected) and indeed I managed to conquer Babylon without losses. Had already the Sphinx, I added the Oracle, and later a temple to grow two Prophets.

Troops turned immediately arround and conquered in parallel Samarqand und whole india. The former was easy, the letter really close - India now commonly already has Iron and the Immortals are completely useless against Axes. Anyway, I had bought two expansive mercenaries and these made the difference, yielding 3 indian cities (and one razed).

On my way back the barbs had razed the phoenician city and the independent city in Turkey, while Egypt got Yerusalem. Then the crazy part began: I attack Egypt, Greece declares against Egypt and me, bringing on the free units all over the place. I luckily managed to defeat them at Babylon and Shushan, and they helped me conquering Yerusalem. Egypt got conquered as well, eventually. On my way to Greece, Rom attacked Carthage who had asked to be my vasall, and there more units spawned. Carthage lost, but when Rom also attacked Greece, I took my chance of simply demanding the city in Turkey from Greece for peace. Conquered Constantinople, and after Rom wasted a huge stack of units before that city I also got Athens offered.

In the end, getting the 2 shrines and the wonders (in such a conqueror game) was not difficult, but I think the 8% territory is even tougher than in vanilla: commonly either India or Babylon have Copper/Iron and you loose too many units there (I got lucky this time). Moreover, since China builds correctly the Wall you have to deal with the barbarians and there are quite a lot, meaning that you have to have many units: I did not finish one technology myself, I always got the remainder offered from my vasall or for trade.

What I mean is, could we consider reducing the 8% threshold (given that for this you need to conquer territory that never belonged to Persia), or provide an army that is more up to the task (say two axes additionally?)

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Were you the only civ with Catholicism when you built the AP?

Huh, so that's why! Then, all the more reason do delay the Catholic Shrine (which spreads Catholicism) until after AP.

Also I think founding 4 Religions is quite enough, as founding each gives a -2 Stability penalty (in addition to non-State religion penalties). So it's best for China to switch to Secularism (via Shwedagon Paya) asap after AP so you can spam triple/quadruple Monasteries everywhere (I researched everything up to Chemistry & Democracy in the end). Quite historical too - in this case Catholicism and Orthodoxy represent Legalism and Mohism.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Oh, and another thing concerning the Dynamic Names for China:

- Discover Gunpowder (which means entering Renaissance), Tang Empire (Medieval name) becomes Song Empire - very historical. It used to be that Renaissance name for China is Ming Empire - glad to see this changed.

- But then the Song Empire annexes Japan, and the Dynamic Name becomes "Middle Kingdom of China" again. Really? I think Song Empire would work just fine. Or any other name, really, because Middle Kingdom of China is the name for China when running Despotism, yes? Conquering Korea is fine and doesn't change the dynamic civ name (remains Tang Empire).

 

[Leoreth]

- But then the Song Empire annexes Japan, and the Dynamic Name becomes "Middle Kingdom of China" again. Really? I think Song Empire would work just fine. Or any other name, really, because Middle Kingdom of China is the name for China when running Despotism, yes? Conquering Korea is fine and doesn't change the dynamic civ name (remains Tang Empire).

Really? That shouldn't happen.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Really? That shouldn't happen.

I'm not sure it's conquering Japan that triggered it, but it happend around that time, about 10~20 turns after Japan's spawn.

I've also had multiple other games where I play as a European civ, and by the time I meet China (when China has Gunpowder, Paper and possibly Education), its dynamic name is "Middle Kingdom of China". With Taizong as its leader. It happened since before the Barb overhaul, I think. But then I just thought the dynamic names were unfinished yet, as I've never seen AI China called "Song Empire" ever. It's either "Tang Empire" or "Middle Kingdom of China" or "Ming Empire" (post-Mongol respawn).

Anyone else seen Renaissance "Middle Kingdom of China" on SVN? I think it's rather common.

 

[Leoreth]

Middle Kingdom comes into effect when you're not an empire, so it's number of cities based. But I don't think that's been the case when you were expanding into Japan.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Finally updated; this time with a new feature: Leaderboards.

Go check the first post and win some UHVs if you aren't satisfied with your spot on the leaderboards!

 

[Meister Maggi]

Finally updated; this time with a new feature: Leaderboards.

Go check the first post and win some UHVs if you aren't satisfied with your spot on the leaderboards!

Nice!

However, my Babylon Victory is also the fastest (BC not AD... ) Sorry, Neshalin!

 

[Neshalin]

I had noticed

And no idea how you teched that fast! Does keeping Shush make such a big difference? I always choose to destroy it - don't like my cities flipping to other civilizations.

 

[Meister Maggi]

I had noticed

And no idea how you teched that fast! Does keeping Shush make such a big difference? I always choose to destroy it - don't like my cities flipping to other civilizations.

I think the first difference is that I grab Code of Law with the Oracle, which is more expensive; then, I do not know exactly the numbers on the increased costs for techs with more cities, but Shush gives you not only all the commerce it produces but also the trade route in two cities; again, no idea if that does make teching itself faster, but Babylon does not need to produce units in the beginning (besides one initial warrior), and focus earlier on the buildings/wonders.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Adjusted. Neshalin, you're now on the lowest tier of the Leaderboards

 

[Neshalin]

I gave Babylon a few more tries. Couldn't beat the top score unfortunately (got 9682), but I managed the same date at least, and beat my own score. Previously I had used The Oracle for Monarchy, because Persia spawns with it and you couldn't possibly research it before then. Apparently you can! I managed without Shushan, which never flipped to me, just by running some scientists. A timely Great Scientist allowed some score padding by bulbing Mathematics, but I need to somehow grab another 911 points to top the record. Not sure how!

This really needs a lot of luck. I don't think it can be done without some lucky huts.

 

[Neshalin]

Got it! Babylon on Monarch, finished 700 BC with 10963 score. Like I said in my last post, luck plays a huge role. This time, not only did I get Horseback Riding from the first hut, allowing The Oracle to give Code of Laws, I also got Masonry from the third hut. Still no gold for mercs to take Shushan. Running two scientists, I got Mining AND Monarchy by turn 78. I went for Bronzeworking after that, just to be safe, but it was unnecessary as Persia spawned at peace. I agreed to the flip of Shushan, which promptly got razed by barbarians, giving me the culture back for vital points

Spoiler :

I'm not sure if I like the barbarian overhaul. It mostly seems to involve lethal stacks sitting outside your border doing nothing. My lone bowman would've died so many times had the Assyrians decided to invade Babylon...

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, it's hard to balance Mesopotamia though. If you're going for UHV, there's not that much spare production to fend off large attacks. Did they attack you when you tried to leave your territory?

 

[Neshalin]

I didn't try. Only the initial warrior left to score huts. I wanted to build some roads out to settle after the Persian spawn, but - as you said - couldn't spare the hammers to train escorts for my workers.

Just now I was playing as Egypt, and the wild animals completely ignore you. Previously you had to fight your way to South Africa; now you can just stroll over there and get the huts without trouble.

Earlier I was playing as Maya and had crossbowmen prepared to fend off the barbarians/native, but they never bothered to attack. Makes settling North America a lot easier.

All the barbarians really do now is flip to later civilizations. This is on SVN revision 430, by the way. If you have made more changes to barbarians since then, I don't have them. I just wanted to benefit from settling on resources, and try the new civilizations.

 

[Leoreth]

Okay, I'll play with the AI a little.

 

[Ororo]

Finish date: T134 (100BC)
Score: 21650

It was a very standard Greece game:

Settled Corinth + Copper city and sent my initial stack to attack Egypt. Egypt was very weak in this game, its defense consisted of ~3 warriors so I captured Diospolis Megale w/o any casualties. Unique chariots that have flipped to me in the beginning did the same with Babylon. Iirc Persia helped with Phoenicia, basically I stole Sur from them. After reinforcing my stacks I stabbed Persians and destroyed them completely (they just wouldn't collapse...). Rome DoW-ed my in the end but posed no threat.

Corinth built all the wonders, since I was using it as my primary GP farm. I only built Wonders in other cities for failgold, since I needed a lot of gold to fund my research. I popped IW from a hut very early, which allowed me to Oracle MC.

Tech was probably the most difficult part as I didn't really manage my GP spawning well. In retrospect, I should have chopped an early Library somewhere and saved a GS for Philosophy bulb.

New Barb mechanics looks good although I really don't appreciate random barb HA's spawning inside (!!!) my culture. I wish basic rules of fogbusting worked in DoC.

Screens:

Spoiler :

 

[Leoreth]

Certain barbs are intentionally set to be able to spawn inside borders, so you can't avoid them by covering their spawn zone with culture. Did they spawn right next to your cities?