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I just notice again, that Settlers on Marathon scale correctly, so they cost 3 times as much, while units only cost 2 times as much... I can't imagine, that peaceful REX has any chance on these settings...
 
Ah, so true. Forgot about marathon settler cost. Probably better play epic if you want to try out some rexing strategy.

Regarding mixing it up, I usually like to do that a lot, try many different approaches. Maybe one approach is superior, but playing a completely different strategy every now and then can still lead you to ideas to improve that you wouldn't have thought of otherwise. Just like pure CE or SE is considered suboptimal to hybrid economy, I think the same is true for any strategy. The more different strategies you know, the more tools you have at your disposal to improve whatever strategy you are using in a particular game.
 
The 3rd Worker and letting the capital grow to size 5 instead of staying at size 4 were probably errors... I thought I'd take the chance when the Camp got destroyed and I needed to work the Oasis to grow to size 5, because growing later would be more difficult with less :food: because of working the Camp again. And when I decided for the 3rd Worker I just saw how much work there'd be for Workers but I didn't realize, that it'd also keep the 2nd city from growing, and that it'd be good if it were size 3 with the borderpop to directly work the Gold. Growing to size 5, definitely an error, 3rd Worker maybe not, because once the borders of the 2nd city pop, I can work the Wheat and the Sheep and then, the city should grow fast, while I improve the Gold. It loses the Stone as a tile then for some time, but I think building the Worker was still ok, because the alternative would have been building a Library for 4 :science: / turn while the Worker can chop, and with 3 :food: surplus, the city wouldn't have grown really fast anyhow.
 
Hi Seraiel,

Interesting setup you have, there.
Thanks for providing so much info with screenshots and describing your thought process.

I'm not familiar with Marathon speed so I may be particularly off in some regards because of that.
Otherwise, the following is just my take on your situation.

INCOMING !

a) Coulda, woulda

Was it worth it growing the capital to size 5 ?
If you could improve corn, pigs, gold and ivory, then wouldn't the natural way to go rather be :
Grow to 4, then go settler, settler ?

That way, you grow before improving food negative tiles.
And, while you get a slightly later city 2, this is compensated by a faster city 3 (higher overall yield in capital).
Growing to 5 with food negative tiles improved doesn't seem like the best option.

I don't have much of opinion on training 2 workers vs 3, especially since I haven't considered the timings much. What I can tell, however, is that strengthening your workforce before access to Alpha / BW sounds good, as you did.


b) First city spots

It's interesting to see the different phazes in your thinking.
Settling city 2 towards Lincoln is a can be stuff. Although, in that case, I'd definitely try to settle with the cows in the first ring. It would be too hard to control the tile overwise (3rd ring of Lincoln's capital).

For city 2, I agree that going for the Stone makes the most sense.
Maybe the spot you chose is best, because it has access to the Wheat.
However, maybe it's actually better to settle on the stone : that lets city 2 share the gold from the capital. Gold is already improved and cap gets +2 food. When the capital pops borders, the second gold can be improved and the capital gets back its -2F tile.
The difficulty with such a location is that the Wheat would be in the second ring. So the city would need to work immediately on a culture building.
Monument with 5H/turn is 18 turns... Then you need 30 to pop borders ? Ok... maybe that isn't good enough and settling the way you did is best.

For city 3, I think the natural location is straight north from the capital.
Cow/rice gets you a double food city.
Considering that the rice will be claimed by the capital's culture, why not settle with the cows in the first ring ?
Settling 1SW of the cows would allow for a very fast development. Faster development is probably better than slightly better placement.
For this reason, it might even be worth it to consider this spot for city 2. The advantage of growing the wheat first is that it will require 3 pop to work gold and stone. Cow city, however, can work a 3F tile from the get go, which soon becomes a 6 yield tile.
Worker management may factor in this choice. Maybe it's easier to send it south, first.


c) On RExing vs warring

Both approaches are very strong. An efficient REx can catapult one ahead of the AIs.
However, as in “early”, most of it happens before 2000 BC.

In principle, the more excellent city spots are available, the more appealing RExing is.
Conversely, the more cramped/poor the map is, the more appealing warring becomes.

Sure, calculating hammers for military vs settlers has its use but it doesn't make up for assessing the land's quality. In the end, what matters isn't so much how you acquire the city spots but rather what city spots you acquire and when.

So, the map you've generated, with a minimal number of opponents, is bound to favour RExing.
You can war early but then you should try to do your best to multitask and expand eastwards at the same time.

In principle, again, the more spots you have to settle,
(Counting 13 dots in this pic :
http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q521/Seraiel/CIV general/Civ4ScreenShot0052_zps0dmwd3it.jpg

The more you should try to make “each settler count”. That is say aim to settle the absolute best spots first, rather than try to get fancy with late game overlap.
It will take a while to settle all of these cities and maybe you can settle some less cities by grabbing more resources with your settlers.
To clarify, the more cities you can settle, the more appealing it becomes to settle a single 3-food city, rather than spreading the 3 food specials between 2 cities. That way, you'll save the cost of a settler and gain turns towards the end of your initial expansion.
The earlier you end the initial expansion, the earlier you can start focusing on city growth.
Also, better cities may make it easier to produce the GPs you'll need.

You'll always have time, later, to backfill the land with some helper cities, if you wish.


d) Shaving on the settler count

To me, an interesting tile is the fur. You're planning a city with the fur in the 1st ring.
Do you really need it ? Or can't you rather do with the early luxury trades ?

You're right that the fish + sheep spot west of the furs is about the strongest site available, even though it doesn't secure land.
Why not settle that city in a stronger position, 1E, so that it can grab the deer in the 2nd ring ?

The furs could be in the 3rd ring of the crabs city, if you settled it 1W. Or in the 3rd ring of any city to the north.


As it is, one spot I don't like much is the red do 3N1W of the central gold. That city doesn't grab anything, I wouldn't let it interfere with any other city placement.
Another weak spot is the incense city. One thing to note, here, is that with a border pop, a city 1SE could grab fish + cows + incense. In this case, you wouldn't need to rely on fish city to grab the wheat.
City below the central gold, imho, can be placed about anywhere in the area. Mostly, it depends whether you want a helper city for your capital. It seems to me like this is the easiest spot for a helper city. Another possible helper spot would be 1SE of the cows that Lincoln stole you (only shares two tiles). So, a helper 1W of your red dot would be conceivable and would leave room for a city somewhere 3N of the furs. Otherwise, you could move the city away 1E so as to grab the most tiles. The way you have it, it grabs the most riverside, which is quite neat.

Finally, there is the banana, sugars area in the north, that you may or may not want to settle.
Yet again, I'd try to focus on multiple food cities rather than a perfect overall dotmap.

As a trend, here, it seems that many cities would really want some early border pops.
With that in mind, you may want to consider some Caste System action, hiring Artists and such.


e) On warring

What AIs are you willing to kill ?
I guess it only makes sense to kill Lincoln, as the bugger is in the centre of the map, loves himself some Emancipation and actually grows cottages into towns.
Are Elizabeth and Mansa really war targets ? I wouldn't think they are.
So... are we looking at a single war target ?

If yes, this should have influences over your general play.
You certainly don't want to invest in a 50 units army and have your veterans stand idle for the rest of the game, right ?
I think your considerations should be two-fold :
- reducing the tech investment to go to war ;
- minimizing the army / leftovers.

In this light, I wouldn't try to go for WEs + Cats. Well, maybe, but would you research the such as Maths, Construction, HBR ? Wouldn't that be a huge waste when you could get (almost) Civil Service for the same price ? (Also, earlier Caste for border pops.)

I think I'd be more attracted to a standard CS beeline and see from there (Macemen war is very efficient).

I don't think there's any real hurry to take down Lincoln. It may even be better to kill him after Calendar is known.
It would also be best, of course, if he did settle the jungle to the north.
If Mansa was the one grabbing jungle in the north, I'd do my best to try and secure a spot along the sugars/lake/rice area. Maybe that's too ambitious, then the banana would be the last line of defence.



Woot ! Deadline is coming up. My essay is due for 3pm today.
I wanted to write something else but I've forgotten what it was, in panic !
I hope you enjoy the read :P This is the conclusion.
Don't feel forced to agree with the tiniest bit. I don't think it's necessary to take my piece of advice as long as you consider the questions raised.
Considering the options is the important thing. Choosing, meh, can go one way or another.
 
Also, Pangaea could be almost awake already again. Do I really need to post in S&T to get some advice?

I played to 5-6am last night, just like yyeah apparently did, so I'm just awake. Damn this game!

Your map looked mighty small, but I see elite already mentioned that, and you cleared it up. Don't know about advice though, since you're a much better player than me, and I've had a recent hiatus myself, forgetting some things and caring less about others.

Since this is Terra, and you presumably want to settle a chunk of the new world, you can't wipe out most on your own continent, or domination will trigger at some point. You have a lot of land there, so maybe REXing will be good. Marble is obviously something you want, though.

I've considered giving the cottage-emancipation route a go as well, but considering you're likely to start beating spots that bcool and kovacsflo have right now, it's perhaps not unexpected if they don't give away all their tricks or knowledge about the approach. Like you said yourself, you like to learn a strategy from others and then perfect it.

It's an unusual path though, so I probably want to try it out at some point just for the experience, even if it should turn out to be a bit cack. First and foremost this is a game for me, and I want to have fun while playing. The competitive edge makes it more interesting, but it shouldn't be a slavemaster.

Marathon has some strange scalings. Settler being x3 cost while all (?) other units are x2 is pretty weird, and obviously makes it more ideal for heavy warfare, particularly because it's basically Civ4 easy mode. WastinTime, I think, called it Mara-noob, and there is some merit in that, although it's not exactly an endearing term for those of us who play it from time to time :o

edit: Looking at the map again, I thik REXing is still strong here, despite it being war-friendly Marathon. I can't say if it's the strongest play long-term, but think I'd try to block off Lincoln and then backfill that huge eastern land as the economy allows it. The strong point with REXing is that you don't have to 'waste' resources into war. Okay, you can gain some developed city that way, but it also tends to hurt the economy a great deal, you usually whip and chop units. It's better for the economy if you basically just have city defenders and chop-whip infrastructure instead. But like written above, marble is obviously something you want pre-new world, and Mansa or Lincoln are likely to grab it...
 
@ Seraiel

Iam not sure about Rexing especially on Mara. For me game is kind of laggy even on Epic.
Like everything Settling, bulding improovments, workers etc etc basicly everything takes so long.
If one compere it to just conquering ais cities witch allrdy has improovments, worker stealing not mentioning its a lot more fun :D.
Looks like snowball effect is just too big this way.

For Rexing i would choose i think less ais then usuall/standard number for emm particular map.
2 main reasons more land for you, more land for them -> better trades.
For this map i would choose ... probably 2ais if i want to Rex. Letter on i could just compleatly take out one of them.
And maybe Catherine as leader :mischief:.
 
3pm past 5 minutes, you're late, yyeah !
Pangaea, hmm... 3pm is acceptable but for this once only !

From now on, lads, be sure to return your homework before time.
Remember we're trying to run a military organization, here !
 
3pm past 5 minutes, you're late, yyeah !
Pangaea, hmm... 3pm is acceptable but for this once only !

From now on, lads, be sure to return your homework before time.
Remember we're trying to run a military organization, here !

Coulda, woulda :lol:

Btw is it Aztec ? :p
 
Btw is it Aztec ? :p
The organization ? :lol:
I can't say it is, but I wouldn't say it isn't.


I remember, now, the last point I wanted to mention.
There is a common bias in HoF Space Races towards early warring and versus RExing.
That often leads to cramping the maps with as many AIs as can be.

I want to think it's just as valid, although a lot less common, to play with a minimal number of opponents.
Less opponents means the AIs will have an easier time getting land and will have more cities in average.
This, in turn, means that (possibly) AIs would be capable trade partners in the late game.

Seeing how you need to leave about 40% of the land to the control of AIs, it seems like a valid approach, to me, to ensure those AIs will be few, strong and friendly.


There are some other benefits to having less AIs (competition for wonders) ;
And difficulties (harder warring, later Alphabet) ;
But mostly the late-game tech speed is what I'm curious about.
 
But mostly the late-game tech speed is what I'm curious about.

Me too, particularly since this is Deity and they are, as we all know, boosted to ballyhoo with bonuses.

Faster techers mean quicker Emancipation too, but if going with cottage spam, that's obviously less of an issue than if you need to lure them into caste. With so few AIs, will emancipation anger have less impact btw?
 
With so few AIs, will emancipation anger have less impact btw?

I dont know about this mechanics ..yet, didnt found any explanations about .
So i dont want to guessing maybe someone else can know something more .
But for sure it is easier to control 2 or 1 ai via spies for eg. then like 8.
Another thing is, if one will take out 1ai of 2 ( witch what one probably should do, at some point).
IIRC if one ask this last ai for switching out of Emancipation he will do it, since there will be no info "we dont want to deal with :mad:" -> beocuse simply noone is running Emancipation.
Edit.
I like this arguments btw Pangaea.

I allso like this

There are some other benefits to having less AIs (competition for wonders) ;
And difficulties (harder warring, later Alphabet) ;
But mostly the late-game tech speed is what I'm curious about.

Yea my concern was allso about early tech speed, but one can deal with it simply -> add Mansa.
Maybe this wont be that much efficent beocuse allso more ais meens more :gold: for techs but well...
If one want to Rex one simpy needs land ... + and - of strategy.

But overall adding less ais makes sens with Rexing strategy i supose.
 
Thx a lot though elitetroops :) . If noone else answers, I'll really try out the Democracy approach myself.

I'd like you to try the Democracy approach, so I guess I shouldn't answer.

I've thought about trying this, but it doesn't sound good. Are you doing it more for the Statue of Liberty? or the cottage growth? I find it hard to believe that it's worth it to have your cottages grow sooner. If you have 100 cottages, I suppose that could be +200 with PPress villages.
How many turns would you actually spend in Emancipation on normal speed?

With that, you can't run slavery or caste (+1 workshops and mega-specialists). And then you have to build space parts, so cottages are not as good as workshops.
 
I've never really tried the cottage spam + Emancipation approach.
It never really seemed better than Communism or military techs or corporations etc etc.

I have vague memories of an Ironhead game where he/she Lib'd Democracy to good effect.
A whole bunch of huge riverside cities with 20 towns giving +9:gold: each (Free Speech + Printing Press + Free Speech).
Statue of Liberty came very early and the +200:gold: cities had 5 or 6 Academies churning out close to +400:science: each.

Guide to Cottages:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=301724

Even under ideal theoretical scenarios, I'm just not sure it can ever be better than corporations for Space Race games.

I've toyed with the idea of using Elizabeth and bulbing Theology with a Great Prophet, bulbing Paper, and then Oracling Education, but Lib->Democracy is still far away.
 
I'm very thankful for the advice of you all, especially for the one of BiC, as he only came to these forums because I asked him too, and he invested a lot of work in that post, which's advice is really very detailed. I don't get the joke about the Aztech Corporation btw. ^^ Understand plz, that I also want to test, if spending more time on the reports will be better, than reacting towards every post now. Should kovacsflo and bcool report positively about the Emancipation-approach, I'll test it, I value Kaitzilla's critique very highly though.
 
@Pangaea
There is a little-known trick behind your current dilemma:
1. Declare war on the AI
2. Assuming that you're totally dominating that AI, stack a bunch of armies next to his Cities and reduce the number of defenders in his Cities but do not capture any of his Cities
3. When the AI is willing to talk, and assuming that you aren't going to lose a lot of battles (i.e. assuming that you won't make the AI unwilling to talk by losing a lot of battles--although, I'm not sure if this "willing to talk" status can change mid-turn or not), capture enough of the AI's Cities to bring that AI down to 3 or less Cities
4. As part of the Peace Treaty, give the AI back all of its Cities plus any of your Cities on the map (except for your Palace) that you want to give away to that AI
5. Laugh hysterically when the AI says "It is agreed."



@Seraiel
Are you playing with Barbs? If yes, be sure to spawn-bust the City locations that you want early on, as with a lot of unclaimed land, you can otherwise expect to see Barb Cities cropping up.

On the plus side, Elepults are perfect for capturing Barb Cities and having Barb Cities spawn far away from AI empires is great as you can usually count on the AIs to help with killing off some, but not all, of the Barb defenders. Barb Cities behind AI lines tend to go to the AIs, though.



Not sure, if I shouldn't let Lincoln settle this spot.
AIs are pretty smart about not settling too close to your Cultural Borders and I find that they won't settle one square away from your existing Cultural Borders unless there's nowhere else left to settle in that region of the map. So, don't count on an AI to place a City where you want that City to go if you want an AI to build a City that will overlap some Resources that are in your Cultural Borders or will be within your Cultural Borders when one of your City's Cultural Borders expands again.


How do you plan to gift Stone to Lincoln if you 1. do not settle on top of the Stone and 2. are beelining Alphabet instead of detouring to techs such as Masonry? Masonry can be a tough tech to get in trade (even with Mansa around, Mansa might be building The Great Lighthouse, The Great Wall, or The Pyramids at the time and won't trade the tech, and it's a tech that has a high monopoly value), but you might get it in trade once you have Alphabet, or you might just have to self-tech it after researching Alphabet.

Of course, if you plan to gift away Stone to an AI to help you in building Wonders, be sure that you'll eventually plan to go to war with that AI.


Improvements in the first ring are key with 30 Culture being needed for a Cultural Border expansion. Use this fact to help you to get one City started that can grow, whip a Monument, and then expand its Cultural Borders to help grab a Resource that another City can use. For example, SE Sheep (settled 1E of where you placed it, to share the Deer square in its big fat cross) is also a good City because it can grow on the (somewhat Food-poor, but better than nothing GH Sheep) then can whip (or Chop) a Monument, earning you the ability to improve the Deer by the time that you'll settle your Deer + Fur City.

That said, the map looks pretty small, so you could consider aggressively settling the 2-Sugar + Rice location in the north to block off more land. It's going to cost you a lot to settle such a City and going to war for it later is probably a wiser plan, but only if you really need that City (after reading more of what you wrote, I see that you aren't on a Pangaea map, so you might not even want that location).

You can also consider settling and gifting a poor City behind your empire to try to encourage an AI to settle more Cities there or at least build a Road to said City for you, making it easier for you to settle in that area. Get on this task soon, though, or all of the AIs will have 4 or more Cities and then won't take your "gift."


Worker-stealing can help, but it can also hurt. You might lose a trading partner or force an AI to spam more Military Units, meaning less tech trades or a harder war later. Plus, if you Worker steal from an AI, that AI is going to be far less likely to be able to have enough production power to build you Wonders. A game without Worker-stealing isn't a game that needs to be thrown away and can sometimes be to your advantage relative to Worker stealing plus messing up an AI in ways that may hurt you more than the gain from the Worker or Workers.


Corps are only as good as the Resources that are available for you to claim on the map. Sometimes, Corps are awesome, but other times, Workshop-spam, Windmill-spam (on a map with many Hills square), Cottage-spam (with a plan to run Free Speech and Universal Suffrage, not just temporary Emancipation), or Specialist-spam with Pyramids (at least for the first part of the game) can be better choices.


Knowing that the map is Terra changes things a bit, as you can strongly consider only settling really good land, keeping the AIs as tech partners, and using the Astronomy-Lightbulb approach to get you close to the Domination Land Limit using new-world Cities without ever having to get into a war.

Of course, conquesting and Liberating Cities can also get you Friendly AIs.
 
@ Dhoomstriker:

I'll either lib Democracy or Biology, depending on whether I go for Cottage-spam or for Sushi. Education (with Oxford! ) is just too good as a tech in a spacerace to deny it to onesself.

About Masonry: I found it in a hut. Settling on top btw. wouldn't have helped, and AIs don't tend to build the Mids if they don't have Stone, they build them relatively fast if having Stone though, especially Lincoln. Don't know why, but I observed that multiple times.

---------

I worked over the Dotmap. Some advice was very good, some doesn't fit but BiC had no chance to see that from the screens, and I'm completely unsure about the Deer and the Furs, look:



1. City for Incense is definitely better than before.
2. Cow-city in the NE is just a filler-city, if I settle it, it will be really late.
3. I can only grow the capital to a maximum of 18, assuming I get all Happiness resources including the Furs and with the city having a Market and a Forge. Without the Furs, it'd be 16, so I need the Furs at latest around somewhere near Scientific Method, maybe slightly earlier. If settling the Sheep-city with Deer, it cannot get the Furs because they're in the Furs are in the 60% ring, so I think I'd need to push :culture: in that city. Scientific Method is still in the BCs in a Marathon Spacerace.
4. The northern city is at the right spot. I SE of the Cows doesn't claim a single hill, that's why it's not suitable. Still not sure, if settling the city is the right decision, especially not as 3rd. The spot with the 3 resources of food is great, but it needs a lot of Workerturns and has almost no Forests, so I'd prefer Sheep-Fish first then. I probably cannot do that tough, because then, Lincoln will settle something like Rice + Sugar.

If noone of you posts his opinion about Sheep-Fish / Sheep-Fish-Deer either minus Furs or with a Furs-city, that basically doesn't have a single tile on its own, I'll make the call myself during the next 3 hours ^^ .
 
Needed to post this update. Researched 'til Alpha and traded for BW and IW. Bronze was revealed in the 3rd ring of the capital and the only Iron I can get needed to adjust the dot-map:



This is somehow a little odd, because I wanted to found Sheep-Fish-Deer and then simply found Carbs 1W so that it'd get the Furs with 40% culture, but not having Iron is imo. unacceptable, Iron just overwrites Furs. Also adjusted the Incense-city in the way BiC mentioned. It'll not have a single green hill like that, I think BiC wants me to play solely with the whip and later Workshops ^^ Needing 1 Settler less is as attractive though, as the city not only having Cows but a real source of food.
 
I forgot:

@BiC:

Elephants are more cost-effective than Maces. When one has Ivory, one should build Elephants. Beelining Civil Service may still be right instead of researching Construction, but Elephants have 0 problems of beating even Spears on Hills when combined with a small number of Catapults, and against Longbows, Elephants have the same chances. Elephants even beat Maces because they can use Shock while the Mace cannot use Formation and against XBows, Elephants even do better. Building 1-2 Maces for stack-defense is good and important, but in general, Elephants are simply the superior Unit. I told you this already when commenting on the domination game you played with Hatty, that 8xx AD or 9xx AD Immortal win. You wrote, you wanted to consider this, seems like you need a reminder :hammer: .
 
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