The historical basis for "X" Independence

[NedimNapoleon]

Neither Cabinda or Dubrovik would appear to require crossing through alien waters to reach them, which makes them not enclaves of any sort. They are exclaves.

And 'looks ugly on a map' is about the worst way to decide national borders.

Cabinda has a disputed maritime boundary...that may cause trouble.

Also EU3.

 

[Tahuti]

Spoiler :

Fryslân Boppe!

 

[Domen]

Wow, such a cute flag deserves to have its independent nation.

If there is no nation which uses this flag, it doesn't matter - we can create one.

What flag is this?

 

[Arakhor]

The Frisian flag. Milk cows unite!

 

[History_Buff]

That's the only way to decide them in EU3.

Oh absolutely.

Cabinda has a disputed maritime boundary...that may cause trouble.

Also EU3.

Eh, not really. Looking at the local geography, any dispute is likely to be the line of the border with the DRC. But there's all sort of international law principles that will see that it has access to the sea.

 

[Gucumatz]

Domen, you finally have learned to joke about Poland by proposing that Duchy

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Catalonias

Catalans.

This actually applies to some extent also to California versus the rest of the USA.

Nonsense, Cali needs us to help it pay its electric bills.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Once California fixes it's budget. Which may be never.


And obviously South Vietnam, because commits are bad.

 

[Lord Baal]

What about Western Papua? Or Aceh? Just to pick on our Indonesian neighbours.

 

[Arwon]

Mate if we let Indonesia break up all the successor state swould legit take over the UN General Assembly.

AND THEN WHERE WOULD WE BE.

 

[innonimatu]

I read some time ago Cabinda actually had a pretty good independence movement going until the Portuguese quashed it and made sure it stayed Angolan - I think, with the intention of constant bickering between the two allowing Portugal to maintain some sort of economic control over the two. Inno would know considerably more about this than me, I would imagine.

Since you mention it, I can write a few things Cabinda is a good example of the games played with liberation movements in Africa, where people became cannon fodder for ambitious bastards who suddenly saw the possibly of setting themselves up as little tyrant "liberators", quite often while at the service of some other power.

The first "liberation movement" to claim Cabinda was UPNA, which formed in 1954 in Leopoldville and claimed the north of Angola and Cabinda. They originally aimed to recreate the old Kingdom of Kongo and turned into UPA in 1958 (which later changed name again to FNLA).

A bit later, in 1956 another group popped up, AIEC based in Brazzaville, which claimed the annexation of Cabinda to Congo (Brazzaville). They remained inactive as the rather corrupt and pro-western regime of Fulbert Youlou in Congo Brazzaville kept good relations with the portuguese government. He only had designs on the territory should (when...) Portugal abandon its colony. This was the first of several instruments set up by Youlou in order to have a claim over Cabinda. This group never did anything and either disappeared or were folded into FDLA in 1963. That, btw, was a failed project led by MPLA with the intention of obtaining recognition by the new Organization of African Unity, which sent a mission to the Congoes in 1963 to observe the "liberation movements" of Angola and ended up recognising only FNLA.
The regime of Fulbert Youlou was toppled in 1963 and replaced with a socialist one which, as a consequence of the OUA decision, moved to supress FDLA (and, ironically nearly wiped out the socialist MPLA which existed solely in exile at the time) and limited support to FLEC.

FLEC was yet another "liberation movement" that started as AREC (Association of the Residents of the Cabinda Enclave), founded in Leopoldville in 1958, claiming independence for (and, needless to say, control over) Cabinda. This was the one that turned into MLEC in 1960 and still exists today, merged with two other tiny movements to form FLEC in 1963. They were also under the influence of Youlou until 1963.
Sidenote about all the name changes: they happened as these movements sought to imitate the algerian FLNA in name, as if their prestige (having defeated the french) would pass into all these new tiny groups. It was diplomatically very important as the new african countries, members of OUA, were supposed to help these movements, but only the "officially recognized" ones.

None of these movements managed to establish an actual presence in Cabinda until the early 60s. By 1963 the main "liberation movement" operating in the north of Angola was UPA/FNLA based in Zaire. Cabinda had excellent terrain for guerilla war but Portugal had sought to "buy" quiet there from the US in 1957 by handing over oil concessions to Cabinda Gulf Oil (Chevron). The consequence was that once the first significant oil finds were made in 1964 the US leaned on Mobutu to restrain the actions of both MLEC and FNLA in Cabinda. Mobutu was also kept in check by the threat posed by Moise Tshombe until his kidnapping and assassination by the Algerians in 1967: the portuguese government repeatedly supported his attempts to regain control of Katanga.

The MPLA regained support from Congo-Brazzaville in 1964, but kept being attacked by the rival FNLA whenever their guerillas met. Portugal also made use of african troops to fight off incursions in Cabinda, in particular of a group of deserters from UPA/FNLA who changed sides in 1965 (and who later would join FLEC). Both MPLA and UPA focused on Cabinda in 1964-65, but in 1966, when Gulf Oil found the first big offshore field, FNLA ceased its actions there. MPLA remained active until 1974, working from Congo Brazzaville (which had cut relations with Portugal in 1965) with cuban support.

In early 1974 FNLA became active again in Cabinda, and a large attack possibly supported by zairian and libyan troops was expected. Portugal sought air support from South Africa for the coming battle, but the portuguese revolution prevented the invasion. The war however did not end immediately: FNLA and MPLA both kept making localized attacks on portuguese positions to take ground prior to any agreement for handing over power. And also fighting each other as usual. FLEC also showed up to the party and seized some position in Cabinda, with the old deserters from UPA now joining FLEC. A mixed portuguese-MPLA force expelled it and essentially handed over Cabinda to MPLA. FNLA was wiped out in the beginning of the Angolan Civil war, leaving FLEC as the only tool for Zaire to destabilize Angola. One of limited use, because they couldn't be allowed to hamper oil production... so no, in this case no one wants FLEC around because they're bad for business. Mobutu was probably their last important supporter. And economic control was all along profiting companies from across the Atlantic. Though some of the money eventually flowed to Portugal, granted.

Now guess why I'm such a cynical regarding any and all armed uprisings and civil wars across the world...

What about Western Papua? Or Aceh? Just to pick on our Indonesian neighbours.

Come on... you still have the comically-named "Independent State" of Papua New Guinea to kick around. And East Timor to mess with. Isn't that enough?

 

[History_Buff]

And East Timor to mess with. Isn't that enough?

I believe you meant to say Timor-Leste.

 

[Lord Baal]

Mate if we let Indonesia break up all the successor state swould legit take over the UN General Assembly.

AND THEN WHERE WOULD WE BE.

Good point. The absolute last thing this world needs is for the UN General Assembly to be an undisciplined, irrational rabble.

Since you mention it, I can write a few things Cabinda is a good example of the games played with liberation movements in Africa, where people became cannon fodder for ambitious bastards who suddenly saw the possibly of setting themselves up as little tyrant "liberators", quite often while at the service of some other power.

The first "liberation movement" to claim Cabinda was UPNA, which formed in 1954 in Leopoldville and claimed the north of Angola and Cabinda. They originally aimed to recreate the old Kingdom of Kongo and turned into UPA in 1958 (which later changed name again to FNLA).

A bit later, in 1956 another group popped up, AIEC based in Brazzaville, which claimed the annexation of Cabinda to Congo (Brazzaville). They remained inactive as the rather corrupt and pro-western regime of Fulbert Youlou in Congo Brazzaville kept good relations with the portuguese government. He only had designs on the territory should (when...) Portugal abandon its colony. This was the first of several instruments set up by Youlou in order to have a claim over Cabinda. This group never did anything and either disappeared or were folded into FDLA in 1963. That, btw, was a failed project led by MPLA with the intention of obtaining recognition by the new Organization of African Unity, which sent a mission to the Congoes in 1963 to observe the "liberation movements" of Angola and ended up recognising only FNLA.
The regime of Fulbert Youlou was toppled in 1963 and replaced with a socialist one which, as a consequence of the OUA decision, moved to supress FDLA (and, ironically nearly wiped out the socialist MPLA which existed solely in exile at the time) and limited support to FLEC.

FLEC was yet another "liberation movement" that started as AREC (Association of the Residents of the Cabinda Enclave), founded in Leopoldville in 1958, claiming independence for (and, needless to say, control over) Cabinda. This was the one that turned into MLEC in 1960 and still exists today, merged with two other tiny movements to form FLEC in 1963. They were also under the influence of Youlou until 1963.
Sidenote about all the name changes: they happened as these movements sought to imitate the algerian FLNA in name, as if their prestige (having defeated the french) would pass into all these new tiny groups. It was diplomatically very important as the new african countries, members of OUA, were supposed to help these movements, but only the "officially recognized" ones.

None of these movements managed to establish an actual presence in Cabinda until the early 60s. By 1963 the main "liberation movement" operating in the north of Angola was UPA/FNLA based in Zaire. Cabinda had excellent terrain for guerilla war but Portugal had sought to "buy" quiet there from the US in 1957 by handing over oil concessions to Cabinda Gulf Oil (Chevron). The consequence was that once the first significant oil finds were made in 1964 the US leaned on Mobutu to restrain the actions of both MLEC and FNLA in Cabinda. Mobutu was also kept in check by the threat posed by Moise Tshombe until his kidnapping and assassination by the Algerians in 1967: the portuguese government repeatedly supported his attempts to regain control of Katanga.

The MPLA regained support from Congo-Brazzaville in 1964, but kept being attacked by the rival FNLA whenever their guerillas met. Portugal also made use of african troops to fight off incursions in Cabinda, in particular of a group of deserters from UPA/FNLA who changed sides in 1965 (and who later would join FLEC). Both MPLA and UPA focused on Cabinda in 1964-65, but in 1966, when Gulf Oil found the first big offshore field, FNLA ceased its actions there. MPLA remained active until 1974, working from Congo Brazzaville (which had cut relations with Portugal in 1965) with cuban support.

In early 1974 FNLA became active again in Cabinda, and a large attack possibly supported by zairian and libyan troops was expected. Portugal sought air support from South Africa for the coming battle, but the portuguese revolution prevented the invasion. The war however did not end immediately: FNLA and MPLA both kept making localized attacks on portuguese positions to take ground prior to any agreement for handing over power. And also fighting each other as usual. FLEC also showed up to the party and seized some position in Cabinda, with the old deserters from UPA now joining FLEC. A mixed portuguese-MPLA force expelled it and essentially handed over Cabinda to MPLA. FNLA was wiped out in the beginning of the Angolan Civil war, leaving FLEC as the only tool for Zaire to destabilize Angola. One of limited use, because they couldn't be allowed to hamper oil production... so no, in this case no one wants FLEC around because they're bad for business. Mobutu was probably their last important supporter. And economic control was all along profiting companies from across the Atlantic. Though some of the money eventually flowed to Portugal, granted.

Now guess why I'm such a cynical regarding any and all armed uprisings and civil wars across the world...

I knew you couldn't resist weighing in .

Come on... you still have the comically-named "Independent State" of Papua New Guinea to kick around. And East Timor to mess with. Isn't that enough?

Not nearly. How are we supposed to start proxy wars with only those two meaningless nations bordering on the mammoth Indonesia? If Indonesia split into multiple nations, all with their own hang-ups and quarrels, we could really have some fun.

 

[Tahuti]

Not nearly. How are we supposed to start proxy wars with only those two meaningless nations bordering on the mammoth Indonesia? If Indonesia split into multiple nations, all with their own hang-ups and quarrels, we could really have some fun.

Nah, the Netherlands will snatch Indonesia back, should that ever happen. You Aussies can have Papua New Guinea.

 

[Masada]

If Indonesian went through another 1998 style crisis today, I'd be willing to wager real money that West Papua would not be able to achieve independence. The reason being that the TNI has learned from its mistakes in East Timor. The biggest difference is that the TNI has already established and armed self-defense groups all over the shop. There's also more Indonesians from elsewhere in the archipelago than there are Papuans in West Papua now. Geography also screws them. A lot of the Papuan population lives in lowland cities and towns under the effective guns of the TNI and self-defense groups. The rest live across a huge range, which makes it hard to police, but also makes effective coordination impossible.

Nah, the Netherlands will snatch Indonesia back, should that ever happen. You Aussies can have Papua New Guinea.

That didn't go so well, the last time. But your welcome to say Poso and Aceh. We'll take Bali, Tanah Toraja, Kalimantan and, I dunno, Riau?

 

[Lord Baal]

Nah, the Netherlands will snatch Indonesia back, should that ever happen. You Aussies can have Papua New Guinea.

We had Papua New Guinea. It was crap, so we let them go all "self-determination." of course, they actually asked us to stay in charge, but whatever.

@Masada: Short of the West Papuans getting a shockingly good military leader, or Indonesia collapsing, the West Papuans aren't ever getting independence. Why the hell are we taking Bali? It's a hellhole.

 

[Agent327]

I'm not sure where this thread is heading again, but usually the "historical basis" for independence is some sort of precedence. (Barring that, in practical terms any precedence is superseded ofcourse by might.)

 

[Josu]

But, why is supposed to be an historical basis?
I mean, there are several countries that never existed (as we know them today) before they get they independence. Why now a country needs a precedence (Jeelen, I liked a lot this term for this discussion)? When did the rules changed?

 

[Masada]

All the same point I was going to make.

I also think the correct word in the context is precedent not precedence. The words have different meanings.

 

[Domen]

Domen, you finally have learned to joke about Poland by proposing that Duchy

But, why is supposed to be an historical basis?

It is not. There doesn't need to be any historical basis for the right to self-determination.

Nah, the Netherlands will snatch Indonesia back, should that ever happen.

Or Indonesian immigrants will snatch your job places.

If Indonesia split into multiple nations, all with their own hang-ups and quarrels, we could really have some fun.

Hang-ups and quarrels are much more common before you split, than after you do this.

Check for example marriage - when you divorce, there are no more hang-ups and quarrels.