[RD] The impact on western nations of allowing in millions of Muslim "refugees"

[Agent327]

Nobody would deny that an African or Asian nation have the right to control who they let in, to choose the types of immigrant they need (or don't), and so on and so forth. But somehow the exact same thing is a huge taboo in Europe.

No, it isn't. You must be somewhat unacquainted with EU immigration legislation.

This is the best you can do? I have presented you with facts. And instead of trying to come up with any sort of rational argument, instead you hit me with "TL;DR ur a racist lol"? Sir, ad hominem attacks are not a valid form of argumentation.

Straw man. But apart from that, you didn't 'present facts'. Statistics show immigration criminality is marginally higher than resident criminality. Your response: a linked Wikileaks document on events in Berlin.

Getting back on the topic of crime, have you seen incarceration rates?


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/28/AR2008042802560.html

I realize facts aren't always convenient, but whenever you look at per capita crime rates, they always paint a similar story.

Crime wasn't the topic (see OP and poll). But since you brought it up. why do you think Muslims are overrepresented in French and British prisons? (The article claims 'all over Europe', but doesn't provide any sources for this claim.) The article does have some suggestions.

Unfortunately, the topic of this article is not related to immigration at all. Most Muslims living in EU countries are long time residents, often second or third generation descendants of one time immigrants. By the way, overrepresentation of minorities in prison populations is not a statistical unknown. The question as to why that is, however. is rather a complex one, than a simple one.

So once again we have the suggestion of immigration-criminality, but alas, not supported by any statistical facts.

Lastly, I didn't accuse anyone of racism - which, in itself, is not ad hominem at all. But feel free to use that Report button.

 

[Funky]

Do you know that video where Richard Dawkins speaks to this blonde creationist woman who keeps asking for evidence of evolution? In their 45-minute talk he again and again gives her all sorts of arguments for evolution, only to have her respond every time in her snappy voice "Show me the evidence! Show me the evidence!"

That's how I feel in these kinds of threads in this forum when arguing with fact-resistent multiculturalist lefties.

"Immigrants make up the majority of the prison populations in Western Europe" - "Show me the evidence! Show me the evidence!"

"On average more than every third migrant from Morocco and Algeria is involved in crime" - "Show me the evidence! Show me the evidence!"

Of course every once and a while the response isn't "Show me the evidence!", but "You're a racist!", "You're a right-wing extremist!", "You're a xenophobic bigot!"

The good thing is, you know you have won the argument when that is all your opponents have left to resort to.


On a related topic, the extreme bias in German mainstream media in regard to the migrant situation, which I mentioned in a previous post, has reared its ugly head once again. After a 19-year-old student in Freiburg was raped and murdered a few weeks ago, yesterday the police finally arrested the alleged murderer. It turns out it was a 17-year-old "refugee" from Afghanistan, who had been staying with the student's family. After hundreds of rapes and sexual assaults committed by the recent migrants, this is the first case of murder of a German citizen by our new guests. As such, it was headline news in most newspapers and received great public interest. Not for the Tagesschau though, who decided that this story was not newsworthy and didn't mention it with one word. The same Tagesschau that features crying journalists and extensive emotional reports about the hardships that "refugees" have to endure, obviously considers the murder of a 19-year-old young woman to be an inevitable by-product for the greater good, collateral damage so to say, and will not even mention it. Well I call BS on that. This is just the tip of the ice-berg of an endless list of attacks on German women, and it will not stop any time soon. And by not reporting about it, the anger among Germans towards mainstream media, in this case the TV, will only grow and further divide our country. I should note that in Germany we are forced to pay a TV tax of 17,50 euros a month to support the public channels (even if we don't use TV), who in return feature obvious propaganda shows in favour of the government, one-sided denigrating reports against every opinion that isn't "in line", and omission of news that is actually relevant. And then the same journalists wonder where the anger among Germans comes from...


Just to add a thought: What would have happened if the roles were reversed and a young German man had killed a 19-year-old girl from Afghanistan? The Tagesschau would have spoken about nothing else. It would comment full of pathos about how right-wing extremism is on the rise and how this is a threat to our entire society. There would have been special programs and talkshows discussing this tragedy. There would probably be calls for demonstrations and chains of lights against "the right".

This is not speculation; we know this, because we have observed that the slightest action perceivably directed against migrants immediately gets this kind of attention. Of course, the reverse case never occurs, because the large right-wing danger is only a figment of imagination in the heads of the leftists. The "worst" thing to happen was the pig's head that got put in front of a mosque. Yet this completely innocuous incident entailed more or less the reactions I described above.

 

[Arwon]

This is the best you can do? I have presented you with facts. And instead of trying to come up with any sort of rational argument, instead you hit me with "TL;DR ur a racist lol"? Sir, ad hominem attacks are not a valid form of argumentation.

Getting back on the topic of crime, have you seen incarceration rates?


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/28/AR2008042802560.html

I realize facts aren't always convenient, but whenever you look at per capita crime rates, they always paint a similar story.

I'm curious. Why do you think it is that indigenous Australians are quite overrepresented in Australian prisons?

 

[Hehehe]

Straw man. But apart from that, you didn't 'present facts'. Statistics show immigration criminality is marginally higher than resident criminality. Your response: a linked Wikileaks document on events in Berlin.

Could I please request that you read all the posts that I've made on this topic? I also presented you German crime statistics

Crime wasn't the topic (see OP and poll). But since you brought it up. why do you think Muslims are overrepresented in French and British prisons? (The article claims 'all over Europe', but doesn't provide any sources for this claim.) The article does have some suggestions.

I brought up the topic of crime, since obviously it is highly relevant to the discussion prompted by the original post. Second, the article does mention all of its sources for the figures that are mentioned in the article. Please read it. In case the article is too long for you to read, the sources are also mentioned in the quote I included. As for the causes of this crime, it is a matter of speculation. Perhaps it is cultural differences? I don't know.

Unfortunately, the topic of this article is not related to immigration at all. Most Muslims living in EU countries are long time residents, often second or third generation descendants of one time immigrants. By the way, overrepresentation of minorities in prison populations is not a statistical unknown. The question as to why that is, however. is rather a complex one, than a simple one.

So once again we have the suggestion of immigration-criminality, but alas, not supported by any statistical facts

So your argument is that there is no significant overlap between Muslims and immigrants?

The fact that many of these are indeed second or third generation immigrants makes things even worse. It seems like the prospects of integration are very poor, given that the dysfunction continues at least up until the third generation. In fact, some studies suggest that integration is not working, and that even 3rd generation immigrants remain poorly integrated. As for direct link between immigration and criminality, very well, let us look at the foreign born prison population in various countries:

France:
Foreign prisoners (percentage of prison population)
21.7%
(1.4.2014)

Germany:
Foreign prisoners (percentage of prison population)
27.1%
(31.3.2011)

Sweden:
Foreign prisoners (percentage of prison population)
30.7%
(of sentenced prisoners, 1.10.2014)

Italy:
Foreign prisoners (percentage of prison population)
33.9%
(30.9.2016 - not including those in institutions for minors)

And so on and so on... This site lists the amount of prisoners and foreign born prison population, along with sources. Feel free to browse. Nevertheless, the trend here is clear, immigrants tend to be over-represented.

I'm curious. Why do you think it is that indigenous Australians are quite overrepresented in Australian prisons?

I have to admit, I don't know. I admit I am not familiar enough with Aborigines, their culture and the Australian justice system.

 

[Lexicus]

In fact, some studies suggest that integration is not working, and that even 3rd generation immigrants remain poorly integrated.

Wow, it must have taken godlike powers of observation to get that Muslim immigrants are, in general, poorly integrated into European society.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Wow, it must have taken godlike powers of observation to get that Muslim immigrants are, in general, poorly integrated into European society.

Either godlike powers or common sense but European political elite has neither or may be supressing them for unknown reasons.

 

[CavLancer]

They usually advocate a one-party rule or dictatorship, a martial government, vow for protectionism, interventionism and corporatism. But most of all, they have an inexplicable love for ugly brutalist arcitecture. That is how you "out" a person as a fascist, my dear friend. Now will you reply to my post on page 4? I put in a special effort for you!

Is that the one where you called me a racist? I'm not you know. Racism seems to me to be the left's answer to why everyone isn't full time left. I am an independent. Iirc that post is the 2nd time I've been groundlessly associated with racism since returning to this forum. Boring. Its a religion, no? Not a race. By the way, the fascism as you describe it was also practiced by the Soviets.

 

[Traitorfish]

Either godlike powers or common sense but European political elite has neither or may be supressing them for unknown reasons.

That's the funny thing about the elite, if we're to believe the right, they're both diabolical schemers who'll stop at nothing to retain power and hapless screw-ups bent on self-destruction.

I suppose it's like how immigrants can simultaneously steal your job and live off benefits.

Politics is so complicated.

 

[Akka]

Who said social unrest and friction are goals to be pursued? Nobody. But those of us who live in multicultural societies are used to it, and generally find that the positives far outweigh any negatives. I haven't taken a census of the building I live in, but based on observations, there are people from over half a dozen countries here (probably more), and I'm not bothered to hear French and other languages spoken by my neighbors. As long as they can speak English when necessary and follow the rules, it's not a problem.

Honestly, I'd be bored silly in a country where everyone was the same. Seeking out people of different countries to talk to and learn from (and teach about my part of the world) is a huge reason why I've stayed here on CFC for so many years.

[...]

Diverse music, food, festivals, languages, learning about various customs, picking and choosing which ones to enjoy or even incorporate into one's own traditions... I read something once about a Canadian man (don't recall his ethnic background; it was not northern European) who went to Africa to work on some project, and he started feeling homesick. So his family sent him some tapes of Irish and bagpipe music, and he immediately felt better. That's a normal Canadian response.

I understand this curiosity, but "finding it fun encountering people from elsewhere" seems hardly a justification at a society level.

Sure, but this is a reality of every immigrant culture. Many Chinese and Indian immigrants want the same in Vancouver and Ukrainian immigrants wanted it in the Prairies last century. I don't really blame them for it, we all want to be around those who make us comfortable, but I am also inclined to agree with you that they just need to deal with it. It's less to do with where they come from and more that what they want breaks the law and the principle of equal opportunity. You can find plenty of Canadian-born folks with similar views. I don't believe it's limited to certain foreigners.

If you don't blame migrants to want to keep their cultural traditions and to be with their own, why do you blame natives who want the same (while they are the ones actually justified, because, well, it's THEIR home).

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

That's the funny thing about the elite, if we're to believe the right, they're both diabolical schemers who'll stop at nothing to retain power and hapless screw-ups bent on self-destruction.

I suppose it's like how immigrants can simultaneously steal your job and live off benefits.

Politics is so complicated.

Half of the migrants can work for less then the local population while the other stay on social benefits. I dont see how that is illogical.

As for the elites. The can try both stay in power through destruction or limitation of the potential of those "below". I dont see how that is irrational either.

 

[Traitorfish]

Half of the migrants can work for less then the local population while the other stay on social benefits. I dont see how that is illogical.

As for the elites. The can try both stay in power through destruction or limitation of the potential of those "below". I dont see how that is irrational either.

Well that is no fault of mine.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Well that is no fault of mine.

I dont blame you for making irrational statements. I can live with that.

 

[Traitorfish]

But not with a guy called Mohammed next door.

What peculiar standards you have.

Oddly enough, if it was an African or Asian country facing a massive influx of Europeans and a rapid change in their demographic make-up and culture, the politically-correct multicultural left would be the first one to freak out and support all sorts of draconian measures the locals might take to preserve their way of life. But when an European leader talks merely of controlling immigration, choosing what people to allow in, and encourage the assimilation of immigrant populations, the screaming of "RACISM!!!!" starts. Their motto seems to be Africa for Africans, Asia for Asians, and Europe for everybody.

Remind me, what colour are the indigenous people of Brazil?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

But not with a guy called Mohammed next door.

What peculiar standards you have.

I am working with one with such a name from Senegal. He is one of the best human beings I have met. I think you may be confused....

 

[Traitorfish]

I am working with one with such a name from Senegal. He is one of the best human beings I have met. I think you may be confused....

Well, as I said, politics is very complicated. You can't blame me for struggling to keep up.

 

[Arwon]

I have to admit, I don't know. I admit I am not familiar enough with Aborigines, their culture and the Australian justice system.

Interesting that you look straight to blaming the culture of the over-represented group.

 

[Hehehe]

Wow, it must have taken godlike powers of observation to get that Muslim immigrants are, in general, poorly integrated into European society.

I know. It sounds highly implausible, but it may in fact be the case.

I suppose it's like how immigrants can simultaneously steal your job and live off benefits.

It may sound like there is a logical contradiction but really there isn't. They're both true at the same time precisely because we have too many immigrants.

EDIT: @Arwon: I didn't blame anything. As I said, I don't know what's up with that

 

[Traitorfish]

It may sound like there is a logical contradiction but really there isn't. They're both true at the same time precisely because we have too many immigrants.

"It's not a contradiction, it's a super-truth."

 

[Synobun]

If you don't blame migrants to want to keep their cultural traditions and to be with their own, why do you blame natives who want the same (while they are the ones actually justified, because, well, it's THEIR home).

Your question isn't worth answering given you ignored the rest of my statement in the post you quoted. Literally the same sentence. Please do a better job of attempting to catch me in a hypocritical conundrum.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

"It's not a contradiction, it's a super-truth."

I am glad you have seen the light, son. The harmonisation of apparent contradictions results in wider truth and understanding. Congrats!