The last challenge -- Team game -- Deity trial

[bestsss]

As I said it was luck we got Uppsala, I didn't attack w/ the main stack in 1450AD since I'd have not taken it.
Look at Churchill's stack. He could not take it and left 4 defenders...

Have I split the force I'd have never took it myself either. Ragnar power was 1.5 at some point.

Overall he kept sending small stacks 6-7units (but w/ lvl3 agg rifles in)

 

[Duckweed]

That's OK, I raised the issue since I saw many idle units outside Uppsala including 5 or 6 cannons and bunch of other units. I thought that's an indication of overpower for the city.

Edit:
If you look at the screening shot of my taking of Monty's capital, you will understand me better.

 

[bestsss]

I guess you'd like to hit Toku w/ tank/bomber.

Seriously, i think my set was quite tough. I didn't have rifles (and all [3 only] i upgraded died...) for stack defense.
Uppsala had 18defenders [8rifles-10grens, few of them c1,G2] and some barrage pults (that Ragnar promptly used on the stack) or something like that.

The small stack marching w/ few reinforcements coming should be able to take Monty last city, there should be 6-8 workers as bonus.

 

[Duckweed]

Seriously, i think my set was quite tough. I didn't have rifles (and all [3 only] i upgraded died...) for stack defense.
Uppsala had 18defenders [8rifles-10grens, few of them c1,G2] and some barrage pults (that Ragnar promptly used on the stack) or something like that.

The small stack marching w/ few reinforcements coming should be able to take Monty last city, there should be 6-8 workers as bonus.

Oh, definitely, I had never mentioned about tough war in the AW game, but I sweated in the last set.

 

[GreenShift84]

Lurker comments:

First, I have to say this game requires a little more civ gumption than I think I could muster...so take the comments for what their worth, outstanding game so far

Actually diplomacy will get screwed in few turns w/ the upcoming war between Churchill/Joao. Most likely Ragnar will pay (w/ divine right) to be left alone and we can take every city left w/o any trouble. He can't possibly become vassal to Churchill.

My opinion is that assembly line is the way to go since we won't be safely trade from this point any longer.

This. I believe Ragnar would respond with something like "We are afraid of your enemies" after Joao declares on Churchill, so that should keep him from capping right? Also it might distract Churchill enough for some hassle-free mop up of Ragnar.

At this point the biggest concern, seemingly, is Joao/Toku's military strength vs. Churchill/Willem's military strength. Is no one else out there worried about this? . Churchill might hold his own with the help of redcoats, but Willem looks like a sitting duck vs infantry (especially Toku infantry). So I would for sure gamble and go Assembly Line, with the hope that Churchill goes towards Combustion (Mining Inc. is unfounded right? Might increase Churchill's odds of heading for RR first ). I don't see much hope for the Churchill/Willem duo without Infantry/MGs and you won't have any techs to bribe for peace. If they fall ...

Definitely waiting to see how the finale plays out

 

[shyuhe]

Because of the AI's incompetence for war, it'll take forever for Joao/Toku to make serious gains on Willem/Churchill. In particular, the latter will have to lose a lot of cities before they'll be in danger of capitulating - and by then we should be ready for the ultimate

 

[GreenShift84]

Because of the AI's incompetence for war, it'll take forever for Joao/Toku to make serious gains on Willem/Churchill. In particular, the latter will have to lose a lot of cities before they'll be in danger of capitulating - and by then we should be ready for the ultimate

Could be that my "run-away AI" alarm is sounding prematurely. I've found those situations the hardest to deal with/most common reason for a loss, especially on higher difficulties (I think this qualifies ). Probably just paranoia , but I'd still support bestsss original vote for Assembly Line anyway.

I'll go back to eating my popcorn now...

 

[Duckweed]

Willem/Churchill are a team of 2 powerful deity AIs, I bet they will have either AL or RR in 5 turns, either way they have enough to defend against infantries. Also as Shyuhe mentioned, it's not the era of Laser, so the war pace is very slow for now, even us take more than 25 turns to barely be able to eliminate 1 mediocre AI of ~10 cities. In less than 15 turns, I would assume Willem/Churchill will complete both AL and Combustion. The major reason I am against researching AL ourselves is that we have a very high probability to get it by trade shortly after (The only thing I worry about is that we are going to hit the WFYBTA soon. So behold of Combustion trade if it's the RR they get next, we want to get multi techs next in one trade). Any teching choice now is a big investment and better to be planned carefully.

 

[Duckweed]

Just checked the save again and found that Willem/Churchill's research rate is not very good. We got SP in 1390AD, which means they have already spend at least 7 turns in either AL or RR, therefore, they need more than 20 turns to have AL, RR and Combustion. (the slow research rate could partially due to the units upgrading) So it's the tradeoff between the beaker value and ~15 turns of loss of hammers from earlier factories and power plant. AL would make sense if they are heading for RR now. However if they are researching AL now, it'd be a big mistake to research it ourselves.

Edit: Even they are after RR now, getting biology earlier is good too.

 

[shyuhe]

I don't think we can really go wrong with biology - it's not a high priority AI tech and it helps our economy a lot.

 

[bestsss]

They had steam power before I got communism, so they had it for longer.
Probably they are a couple of turns to completion to their current research.

I wanted to get AL b/c there will be some infrastructure to build.

Biology alone can't be traded for rairoad (less assembly line), we would need a turn (for RR, 2 for AL) before we can trade.

Also I dont think we have a chance to switch Joao to HR w/ a spy. His cities are a bit too far and losing the spies would get extra negative effects.
But w/o religion (FR) he'd be pleased w/ us.

 

[shyuhe]

FYI, I'm a bit busy so I won't get to play this until Saturday.

 

[dingding]

Duckweed is kind to invite me to participate in this SG. I don’t have the time to check the last 32 pages and I just took the last save.

Some observations:

1. The war is slow partially because we don’t have a strong army. I find Adu/MGB/levee are built in many cities but hammers should have been put on units IMO.
2. Economy is good thanks to those MGB. Production is to be improved (production 360 compared to the 700 of our best rival)
3. Potentially we can spam out some GP (GM in preference). Only 5 GP were born and NE is not built. We'll waste our Phi trait if GP is not well used.
4. Domination victory is not possible without attacking Toku/Joao. Toku/Joao have 33% of the land and Domination requires 70% from us? Normally in Pangaea it's 65% something. God we are just so close.
5. Toku/Joao should be given the highest priority. I’m happy to know they are busy for Willem/Churchill. That means an alliance Gadhi/Willem/Churchill can be established.

Suggestions:

1. I agree with bestsss that Biology should be researched first: pop is too low. Then AH/RR/Fascism. The war against Toku/Joao is unlikely to be successful without infantry but before we get it, we can build cannons first.
2. The war against Ragnar/Monty should be ended ASAP. Time is limited. I suggest we eliminate Monty and capitulate Ragnar. Then force him to convert to Confuciusm to improve W/C’s relation. He’s got only 3 crappy cities and we can get one from his capitulation. We don’t need to waste time on him. In addition, he's a free happiness, he's got an incense and Divine Right that W/C don't have.
3. I don’t think it’s interesting to spread Factory/Coal plant. They are costly (unhealthiness is a cost as well because you'll have to build Adu/G if F/C is built) and their returns are not short. Fascism would make it better: 135%=>160% immediately and for free compared to 135%=>210% at a great cost of time and production. Our production is expected to reach 800+ with PS/CS/SP even without AH.
4. I recommend we rush lots of Infantries and take some border cities from Toku, race some cities in a deeper position if we can. Then turtle back to make peace with them.

 

[bestsss]

The war is not slow b/c of the lack of units. We have enough and we shall not build more before we get better troops.
Aqueducts are needed for upcoming mass unhealthiness.
Cities are small due to heavily lowered happiness threshold due to war and emancipation. Emancipation will only increase when Churchill and Willem convert.

We should not capitulate Ragnar. And there are less than 8-10 turns we get all the land available. Converting Ragnar to Confucianism won't help if/when Churchill goes into free religion. The odds are we won't be able to trade w/ Churchill and Ragnar will be a useless vassal.

When Uppsala gets out of revolt we can build NE failrly cheap.

Toku will have Artillery+Airships + prot/agg lvl3. defenders. We won't be able to hit them soon at all I think, before bombers or nukes at least. Both him and Joao have more than 3-4 times our power right now.

Fascism is 25%+25%(forge)+10%state property. Factory/Plant adds 75%. I think there is no question about mass factory building. (We have extra 25% for building factories, party they will be whipped)


I am slightly afraid we won't be able to attack Toku before laser, though.
=--=
Biology 1st is ok but if Churchill is Railroad->Combustion we will have to tech AL next.

I recommend we rush lots of Infantries and take some border cities from Toku, race some cities in a deeper position if we can. Then turtle back to make peace with them.

I don't agree on a skirmish unless Churchill is doing ok in the war (which I doubt due to tech. advantage of Joao/Toku). We can possibly can a peace w/ AP but we can have more than 25 cities and amass 150+ units SoD instead.

 

[dingding]

If we aim for a modern warfare with Tanks/ Bombers/ Nuke, I won’t disagree with you. Factory/ Coal plant should be built. You can also spend more than 10 turns to take over all the land and cities which will not contribute to us in the next 30-40 turns.

But it’s very unwise IMO to leave Toku/Joao conquest WoV with our hands in the pockets. If Joao stops the research and go for a Cultural Victory, a modern warfare might be easier than an Infantry one. But trust me we’ll soon find a war against the evil Jap-Port axe is unavoidable in the very near future.

About Ragnar, he won’t affect W/C’s relationship and tech trade. Both of the two guys will trade techs in Cautious. The only one factor that limits the tech trade is WFYBTA and we’re gonna hit it soon from my experience with or without Rag. True he’s useless as a vassal but there is absolutely no need to waste time to take his horsehockey cities. Time is much more precious.

Some petty discussions:

1. Toku’s border cities are much more fragile than predicted (Just send the two wounded Calvaries to Japan to find). A dogpile war is totally workable.
2. Factories + Coal plants give 7 (before Oil) and 9 (with Oil). Our health cap is just tight and so 1 = 1 lost = 2 BASIC lost. Taken this loss and the 400h for building F/C into account, we find this investment is a medium/long one (return in 30-50turns). They are too good to be postponed in some of the cities and skipped in some others if we wish to attack Toku soon.
3. Further whipping is harmful.

 

[dingding]

Well I find Diplomacy Victory is possible. Toku/Joao will build UN and we'll be candidate in Biology is obtained early. In RF and Nationhood, Willem/Chur will probably vote for us.

If Pop is not enough, just grab the border cities of Toku. But to achieve this victory, Rag should not be capitulated.

 

[shyuhe]

But it’s very unwise IMO to leave Toku/Joao conquest WoV with our hands in the pockets. If Joao stops the research and go for a Cultural Victory, a modern warfare might be easier than an Infantry one. But trust me we’ll soon find a war against the evil Jap-Port axe is unavoidable in the very near future.

We are preparing for that war by building factories and coal plants. I think we will need a sod upwards of 100 units supported by air and siege.

About Ragnar, he won’t affect W/C’s relationship and tech trade. Both of the two guys will trade techs in Cautious. The only one factor that limits the tech trade is WFYBTA and we’re gonna hit it soon from my experience with or without Rag. True he’s useless as a vassal but there is absolutely no need to waste time to take his horsehockey cities. Time is much more precious.

The one value I see in keeping Ragnar alive is that it makes it significantly harder for Joao/Toku to capitulate W/C due to global power weights. However if W/C capitulate him, it won't really change the situation much. I'd rather have complete control of our AI relations than have a donkey running around that we have to reign in.

Some petty discussions:

1. Toku’s border cities are much more fragile than predicted (Just send the two wounded Calvaries to Japan to find). A dogpile war is totally workable.
2. Factories + Coal plants give 7 (before Oil) and 9 (with Oil). Our health cap is just tight and so 1 = 1 lost = 2 BASIC lost. Taken this loss and the 400h for building F/C into account, we find this investment is a medium/long one (return in 30-50turns). They are too good to be postponed in some of the cities and skipped in some others if we wish to attack Toku soon.
3. Further whipping is harmful.

We may whip some factories and forges, depending on how the happy situation looks. Once the draft anger and war subsides, our situation should improve. Do we want to try trading for democracy at some point so that we can push a higher pop before we go back into whip/draft mode? Or are we just going to grind it out with base hammers?

 

[bestsss]

>>But it’s very unwise IMO to leave Toku/Joao conquest WoV with our hands in the pockets.
We're the pope for a reason.
---
The troops need like 8 turns to get home anyways and they are sort of outdated vs toku.
We need less than 10 turns to kill Ragnar which will ensure no motherland unhappiness and one more great general (military academy in ex-Monty capital, imo)
The cities will become quite productive w/ State property. Generally, no city is bad under that civic.

The victory condition has not been discussed but we need at least +9 on deity to get votes and Toku not capitulating Willem/Churchill.

 

[dingding]

>>But it’s very unwise IMO to leave Toku/Joao conquest WoV with our hands in the pockets.
-----------------------------------------------
We're the pope for a reason.

Confucius is not well spread in Joao/Toku. Whether they will refuse to stop the war or accept it is very random – AP system is the worst thing in Civ 4 – in this circumstance, they‘ll probably refuse to stop in the first vote. They may accept it in the second round but I doubt if W/C can last till that time.

About whether factory should be built immediately, it depends largely on when we want to launch the war. I can prove by calculation that we can't get their return in 30-50 turns if it interests someone.

The very important and essential thing is: It’s a million-dollar chance to weaken the power of Toku/Joao by taking or destroying Toku’s cities when they are at war. Toku has 12 cities, which allows him to afford a large amount of SoD. If we can take 3-4 of them, the following warfare with Tanks/ Artillery will be much easier.

 

[shyuhe]

Declaring on T/J and then taking peaces raises the odds substantially that they will later declare war on us in retribution. Bestsss discussed this code recently (I don't remember where).

Do we really want to try eliminating Ragnar? I am worried that the prolonged WW may cripple our growth in the short-term. I'd rather deal with motherland unhappiness and less WW across the empire so that we can grow bigger again.