The last challenge -- Team game -- Deity trial

[shyuhe]

Also with the war over (I played one extra turn to see where our situation is), I think we should revolt at the next chance to US/FS/CS/OR. We don't have to worry about emancipation unhappiness and I think US > Rep right now since we have very few specialists hired. As for FS, we have 40+ towns across the empire which should compensate for Bureau and Delhi (plus reduced civic cost)

 

[bestsss]

we need democracy for US.
Nationalism is like 70gold cheaper than bur but right now Bur is still ahead, imo.
Hmm.. Edit: FS is interesting b/c it will help the culture..

 

[dingding]

Lurker's Comment: I would gladly take less than twice as many 3XP Cannon as 5XP Cannon as I think a 3XP Cannon is worth nearly as much as a 5XP Cannon (85%-90%?). First, the more you have the faster the cultural defenses go down. I'm certainly not wasting that second promotion on Accuracy when I can have CR2 Cannons. Second, CR2 Cannon are going to die against Infantry defenders anyway, so you'll need to have plenty of extras to make up for losses.

But more importantly, if you're planning to go into OR, you'll still be producing 3XP Cannons so you may as well build them now.

If the Cannons' rivals are Cuirassiers/Rifle, CR2 don't make much difference.

But the Cannons are supposed to be upgraded to Artilleries and fight against Tank/Paratrooper/Marines, CR2 improves the odds and damages a lot. Considering the odds, the production cost and maintenance cost, I say 1 3-exp Cannon = 1/2 5-exp Cannon though it's exaggerated.

If I aims for a war with a PHI Leader, I'll certainly choose Theolocrazy as Civic. CR2 for tanks and pinch for infantries are crucial.

Well I try not to be too warmonger here because it's extremely difficult to apply a long-term aggressive war-plan in a SG Try to be prudent. We can win this game anyway.

 

[dingding]

About civics, I want to keep the FR for another 5 turns till we get +2 “you’ve chose the right civic” from Willem. Then change back to OR.

I think if the situation gets worse and we have to go for an UN victory, these techniques will help. Now we have +4 from Willem and +7 from Churchill. We need +9 for their votes. There is still +4 “our trades have been UNFAIR” to improve by gifting cities or techs. So Churchill is ok, Willem may be more difficult. (Maybe we can liberate the Deutsch cities from J/T after grabbing them at war) IIRC civic relation improves every 10 turns, and accumulates and lasts even you change the civic after, so don’t waste these 5 turns of FR.

Agree about US. I need to check if FS can make more beakers than Bureau. I’m not sure, we have Oxford and Academy in the cap. About Culture, it’s sure FS is much better but I doubt if we can still possibly grab the tiles from Toku by Culture.

 

[dingding]

The cities currently building cannons don't have anything better to build except espionage buildings or wealth/research, neither of which speeded up the time to AL.

IMO, hammer beaker/gold doesn't accelerate AL but may accelerate the next one or two tech. That's what I think of building wealth/research usaully.

I'd prefer to avoid physics for now in hopes of trading for it.

We've still got a few (1 to 3) quotas before WFYBTA. If we go for Physics and ignore to trade for Physics, it doesn't matter. We can save the quota for trading for Medicine/Rocket/Flight/Laser which are highly prioticized by AIs.

 

[bestsss]

We have to switch to OR when we get the AL and whip the factories (+-coal) plants in the smaller cities.

Personally, I am not interested in a weak UN victory. I'd prefer a lose than that, seriously.


And don't count the votes of Willem/Churchill just yet, they (esp Willem) might have a few cities (if any) left. Looking at the top power and the avg rating in demographics screen, I am not exactly pleased w/ the war prospective for Willem.

Also we have to switch to "Religion" for the pope votes and eventually to call end of war if we need be.
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I think it's time to hear ideas about the victory condition.
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@dingding

Well I try not to be too warmonger here because it's extremely difficult to apply a long-term aggressive war-plan in a SG

the last Succession Game we played was always war/immortal.

 

[Duckweed]

@duckweed
BTW, why do you dislike the nukes. They feel like cheating?

This is a reason, I had used nuked once in a warmonger deity game and had conquered half of the world in 4 turns. Because Ragnar completed the Manhattan project in ~1500AD, the only way to fight AIs with nukes is nukes. Myself never built it in any game.

Another reason is just private feeling, nuke should not exist in real world.

 

[Duckweed]

3) (Combustion from trade) Flight for paratroopers and bombers (as Duckweed prefers)

You are partially right, I want both fighters and bombers for the war. Radio is required for bomber, so its prerequisite tech Electricity is preferred before Flight.

 

[Duckweed]

Shyuhe proposed a good suggestion for civic change, we should adopt FS + CS + OR when the revolution is available. US need Demo.

Here comes a serious issue, I don't know when we are going to hit the WFYABTA with Willem/Churchill. I can number 22 or 23 tech trade already, their tech trade threshold should be 15*1.2 + each era forgetting. Hence we must get multi techs in the next trade. Willem/Churchill currently might go for AL or Physics, we can find it out when we complete AL. In the best case of Physics, we are able to get Combustion, Demo, and physics in one trade, which leaves us the only good tech next -- Medicine.

Edit:
HE city might want WP, with one GG settled, it can produce level 4 unit from scratch.

There's silver<->22g trade with Joao available. Should cancel the Cow<->Pig deal with Toku and make Cow<->19g instead.

BTW, cannons is only good as the city police in the coming fast pace modern war, so yes, don't build any from now on.

Please spread Judism, which we own the Shrine. Let Upplasa prioritize Bank.

Since this SG is my last one, personally I prefer a strong win.

 

[shyuhe]

HE should get WP but it should wait until the stone is hooked up (I think in one or two turns).

I stopped some of the happy trades with J/T in hopes of slowing down their overall tech rate, although it looks like they're getting the modern wonders so it may be a moot point.

Sorry about the cannon builds - they should probably be set to wealth until AL is in instead. I think I built 2-3 cannons.

 

[dingding]

About Victory condition, since bestsss and Duckweed wish a strong win, it can only be Con/Dom Victory. I still wanna know which cap should be captured in case we can't beat them in time.

About wonders, I suggest to build NE in Draft-a and to change it to a GP farm. It can potentially keep 8-9 spe here. with PHI and NE, that's 72-81 GPpt, we can get a GM every 10 turns in the next 40-50 turns.

A GM gives 1700-2500 gold. So Draft-a produces 200+ gold per turn. (the city can hammer 39*2.1 = 81.9 Gold per turn if all the infrastructures are built). We gain 600 gold per turn at the moment, an extra GM every 10 turns means we can improve our economy by 35%, without taking into accounts the beakers and gold 9 merchants can give.

 

[bestsss]

@duckweed,
I prefer to trade AL immediately now to give some help Churchill in the war. Tanks vs Rifles ain't going to work.

I will be out for most of the day and night, but I hope to be able to check how far from the trade limit we are.

 

[JammerUno]

Lurker comment:

How about some Golden age?

 

[bestsss]

in my opinion golden age is a preferred option, we need 2 different great people but w/ caste that's not difficult (unless we get horribly shafted and pop 2 great artists)
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Also I am not sure how much gold is a great merchant on this map since there is no overseas bonus.

 

[dingding]

in my opinion golden age is a preferred option, we need 2 different great people but w/ caste that's not difficult (unless we get horribly shafted and pop 2 great artists)

Golden age is an option. We can trigger it at the time we spam out bombers + paratroopers/marine (I think they are a good match with bombers, one from the sky and the other from the sea). With Factories + Coal plants, most of cities can produces 1 unit per turn in GA. The odds to pop 2 Great Artists is dim Anyway I think NE is needed in Draft-a, we should build it right now, and it's very cheap (100h)

Edit: I suppose we can spam one GP every 10 turns with NE. Maybe the first one or two can be used for money (GM) and the next two for burning for GA.

Also I am not sure how much gold is a great merchant on this map since there is no overseas bonus.

For the time being, they are at war, our GM can probably maximize the output in Porto 500+200*[1.9 * (1 + 25% + 25% + 50% + 100%)] = 1700.

ref:
1.9: Delhi pop = 19, 1+ 0.1*(19-10) = 1.9 Edit: should be 19/10 = 1.9
25%: Porto pop = 15, 5% * (15-10) = 25%
25%: Trade road, always exists
50% + 100%: Port + Custom
[]: Floor and ceiling function

Edit: Delhi is about to grow to 22 pop. A gm gains 1900 at the moment.

In the future, when Delhi pop = 22 and they get peace for a while, we can add 50% to 150% to the second coefficient, then a GM can give 2100 (20 turns after the war) to 2500gold (50 turns after the war).

About tech trade, to bestsss:

Now tanks are not available for J/T. So it's Rifles/Machine gun vs Infantries.
WoV's chance to survive the war is unknown for the moment but our scout is about to arrive at the front. We can decide whether to trade AH 3 turns after when AH is finished.

Edit: AH should be AL. Sorry for that.

 

[bestsss]

>>Now tanks are not available for J/T. So it's Rifles/Machine gun vs Infantries.
Have you opened the save, a few tiles east of the capital there is a big fat Japanese tank (going to Churchill's east border I presume). And I can bet there are at least 20 more in Willems' land. (~around the same Portugal ones).

>>1.9 = (Delhi pop = 19, 1+ 0.1*(19-10) = 1.9)
Delhi pop doens't matter btw, it's the target city population, not our capital.

AH stands for Animal Husbandry, AL is assembly line, that's what you mean, right.

We will get more commerce (and production) during golden age than gold a great merchant mission can provide.

 

[dingding]

>>Now tanks are not available for J/T. So it's Rifles/Machine gun vs Infantries.
Have you opened the save, a few tiles east of the capital there is a big fat Japanese tank (going to Churchill's east border I presume). And I can bet there are at least 20 more in Willems' land. (~around the same Portugal ones).

Sorry I mixed this save with my save I tried.

>>1.9 = (Delhi pop = 19, 1+ 0.1*(19-10) = 1.9)
Delhi pop doens't matter btw, it's the target city population, not our capital.

It does matter. You can try it with WB.

AH stands for Animal Husbandry, AL is assembly line, that's what you mean, right.

Thanks. I'm not good at English and make a lot of mistakes!

We will get more commerce (and production) during golden age than gold a great merchant mission can provide.

We have only one more chance for a GA if not having an event. We'd better launch it when hammers are needed the most. That can be two periods: when building factories + coal plant; when building units. But we will probably miss the first one because we can pop the next 2 GP in 15 turns but by the time, factories + coal plants will have been built.

Moreover, if you wish to whip the factories + coal plants, it's not appropriate to launch a GA immediately after the whipping as your pops working on tiles are reduced.

I think the next GP can't probably be GM because the GPP is mixed. If it's the case, just save it for the GA. Then next one GM for money, the third GP burnt with the first for the GA.

 

[bestsss]

Indeed, it's the capital size of the distance (the min between, for standard size the multipliers are the same).
Distance like sqrt(deltaX^2+deltaY^2).
Only city of Oporto can be used for trade missions.

We will finish the factories before we get 2 great people for sure. We should finish most of them in your set

 

[dingding]

Distance is max(&#916;X,&#916;Y) + 1/2 * min(&#916;X,&#916;Y)

Before I take the save, we should agree about the tech line and tech trade. I agree about AL => Medicine. We'll get +7/+9 pollution from fac/coal. We can whip some pops to lighten the negative effect, and build the hospitals during the pop recovery. That's: AL finished in t+3, Medicine in t+9/t+10. During t+3 and t+9, whip factories and coal plants.

I agree with bestsss that AL should be given to W/C. According to Duckweed, we need a multi trade next time, maybe AL+research => Demo+Combustion is a good option but that means we'll delay Medicine for 2 turns.

Religion Civic should be changed to OR next time (in t+3). But about FS/Bureau, I recheck the save and estimate FS provides some extra 20 beakers and 20 gold if I'm correct. Considering the lost hammers from Bureau Cap, I doubt if it's necessary to change it right now. (Edit: I was stupid, Delhi's production is 42hpt, 50% is only 21. Ok for the change.)

 

[Duckweed]

There's 2 cases:

1. Willem/Churchill is researching AL now, then just take any trade.

2. Willem/Churchill is researching Physics. Then we should take all three available techs in one trade -- AL + Medicine <-> Demo + Combustion + Physics. (AL + some minor gold should be able to trade for Demo + Combustion alone). With the build of wealth in some cities, there's only 5 turns needed for medicine and we get an extra necessary tech -- physics (that's 5 turns of research). Medicine helps a lot to fight the coming pollution. I don't think it's critical that Willem/Churchill is going to lose 1 or 2 more cities to Joao/Toku, they are far from defeated even this war continues for 20 more turns. The border cities they capture now provide limited usage for them. It's the pace of their sieges that determine their war progress. Remember how long it takes Willem/Churchill to make progress on the war with Monty/Ragnar.