JammerUno
King
^duckweeds calc seems to be missing the improvement on the FP for the grow first scenario as well.
The last challenge -- Team game -- Deity trial
- Thread starter Duckweed
- Start date
Dirk1302
Deity
I think Duckweed's calculation is correct i count 5 turns and 12 turns from 2040 bc save for the the 2 situations instead of 4 and 11 but that doesn't matter. There's already 9 food in the city making growing the slightly better option. The only reason to work gold then would be to get pottery 1 turn faster, not really worth it since we probably won't cottage in that one turn.
you're right, 3 more food for the grow first scenario, and that makes the final result to be 3H vs 10F + 1C.
Shyuhe, you're on the halfway.
shyuhe
Deity
Ok, sounds like we have a plan. I'll finish up through pottery tonight or tomorrow.
shyuhe
Deity
T49: Gold mined, Bombay works FP and grows. Worker begins roading.
T50: Barb suicides on souther archer, warrior disposed of. Delhi border pops.
T51: Gold online, Delhi set to grow again.
T52: Bombay worker divers to build a road so that I can recall warrior - barb archer heading towards Bombay. Delhi grows to size 5.
T53: Nada.
T54: Barb archers suicide again. Bombay worker moves to farm the FP.
T55: Pottery done, I stop here. Delhi will finish its worker next turn and can then grow to size 6 before starting a settler. There's an archer in the queue that can be finished while growing to 6.
Some intel:
And our empire:
We need to start spitting out settlers/workers as the land is getting gobbled up at an amazing speed. Monty has 6 cities already
No one has gone into war prep though. We also have Hinduism in our cities - I think we should adopt it.
T50: Barb suicides on souther archer, warrior disposed of. Delhi border pops.
T51: Gold online, Delhi set to grow again.
T52: Bombay worker divers to build a road so that I can recall warrior - barb archer heading towards Bombay. Delhi grows to size 5.
T53: Nada.
T54: Barb archers suicide again. Bombay worker moves to farm the FP.
T55: Pottery done, I stop here. Delhi will finish its worker next turn and can then grow to size 6 before starting a settler. There's an archer in the queue that can be finished while growing to 6.
Some intel:
And our empire:
We need to start spitting out settlers/workers as the land is getting gobbled up at an amazing speed. Monty has 6 cities already
No one has gone into war prep though. We also have Hinduism in our cities - I think we should adopt it.Also I think adopt Hinduism, we get one happy too.
The warrior from Bombay should go to fogbust around the horse, 3 west I think after the border pop on Bombay will prevent barbs from the North.
Everything looks good, we have quite enough space to plot the cities, also we must starting scout and meet Churchill's team.
The warrior from Bombay should go to fogbust around the horse, 3 west I think after the border pop on Bombay will prevent barbs from the North.
Everything looks good, we have quite enough space to plot the cities, also we must starting scout and meet Churchill's team.
Pretty good. One small micro problem in capital, when producing worker/settler, mined hill is better than even irrigated FP, I saw this problem in last save when it's at size 4.
Yes, I think we should adopt Hindu. Also agree on bestsss, the warrior should move NW to fogbust, and the SE archer is a little far away.
I'm not too worry about AI's number of cities, they're going to slow down after a certain number, they also need to consider the maintenance cost.
I thought it over a while for what tech to research next after Writing and found that we are in a very bad diplomatic environment even for a team game. The only trading partner in early stage is the Willem/Churchill team, so we probably need to research all the classical era techs ourselves, hence I think Obs' post before about the IW is a good candidate. Another thing I have thought about is something I'd call it land diplomacy -- settle some crappy sites after we have our empire blocked and gift them to AIs. The very annoying thing about the team diplomacy is that the fair trade is counted per AI, but not per team.
Also one thing we need to decide right now, do we want o join the war on Monty's side vs Willem/Churchill and do we want to join in the 1st turn? My opinion is yes.
Roster:
Shyuhe -- just played
Pauliskhan -- UP
Dirk1302 -- On deck
The Rook
Duckweed
Obsolete
Bestsss
Yes, I think we should adopt Hindu. Also agree on bestsss, the warrior should move NW to fogbust, and the SE archer is a little far away.
I'm not too worry about AI's number of cities, they're going to slow down after a certain number, they also need to consider the maintenance cost.
I thought it over a while for what tech to research next after Writing and found that we are in a very bad diplomatic environment even for a team game. The only trading partner in early stage is the Willem/Churchill team, so we probably need to research all the classical era techs ourselves, hence I think Obs' post before about the IW is a good candidate. Another thing I have thought about is something I'd call it land diplomacy -- settle some crappy sites after we have our empire blocked and gift them to AIs. The very annoying thing about the team diplomacy is that the fair trade is counted per AI, but not per team.
Also one thing we need to decide right now, do we want o join the war on Monty's side vs Willem/Churchill and do we want to join in the 1st turn? My opinion is yes.
Roster:
Shyuhe -- just played
Pauliskhan -- UP
Dirk1302 -- On deck
The Rook
Duckweed
Obsolete
Bestsss
shyuhe
Deity
Ah, I missed the grass mine vs. FP.
Deity AI basically have no maintenance cost - especially Monty who already has col. I think we need to figure out how we're going to block off some land.
Perhaps we want to go HR early? It'll help get Ragnar to pleased, opening up trades with Monty/Rag.
Deity AI basically have no maintenance cost - especially Monty who already has col. I think we need to figure out how we're going to block off some land.
Perhaps we want to go HR early? It'll help get Ragnar to pleased, opening up trades with Monty/Rag.
PaulisKhan
Physicist
If we didn't have Brone near by I'd agree with going Irnworking, but we do have bronze, it's in a good spot to claim and we can get it now. A city could be placed grabbing bronze and fresh water rice in the first ring (although long term planning would suggest a slightly different site).
My plan is this:
Tech: Writing
Delhi: Finish worker->grow to size 6 wile building archer->and then slow build settler (or do we 3 pop whip?)
Bombay: Finish archer start barracks->axemen (chop/build) and march them next to barb cities asap to maximise chance of cheap city steal.
Third city: Pre-road to city site while settler is building,
Settle with bronze and rice in first ring. Get bronze hooked up first priority.
Build library and grow to pop 4 asap. Work rice and mined bronze wile running two scientists.
Swap to Hinduism to get Monty pleased and HR asap to negate the religion penalty with Ragnar. Long term strategy is to try and befriend this team.
My plan is this:
Tech: Writing
Delhi: Finish worker->grow to size 6 wile building archer->and then slow build settler (or do we 3 pop whip?)
Bombay: Finish archer start barracks->axemen (chop/build) and march them next to barb cities asap to maximise chance of cheap city steal.
Third city: Pre-road to city site while settler is building,
Settle with bronze and rice in first ring. Get bronze hooked up first priority.
Build library and grow to pop 4 asap. Work rice and mined bronze wile running two scientists.
Swap to Hinduism to get Monty pleased and HR asap to negate the religion penalty with Ragnar. Long term strategy is to try and befriend this team.
I also wanted Iron working after Writing. Since the capital didn't have neither copper nor horses I'd bet we will get iron there (or we really got shafted w/ the stating location). Swords are better for taking cities and we can trade copper (or the iron) for some resource and get +1 diplo for +some happiness/health.
Hinduism will let the capital grow to 7.
Hinduism will let the capital grow to 7.
I have thought about build and whip a granary in Delhi next turn, so that we can 3 whip settler and lib efficiently when grow over happy cap. Bombay also need granary up to make whipping efficient. We have enough happiness to support whipping.
I'm on the fence between IW and Monarchy, but slightly prefer IW since there might be a number of barb cities already and sword is double efficient as Axe.
I'm on the fence between IW and Monarchy, but slightly prefer IW since there might be a number of barb cities already and sword is double efficient as Axe.
PaulisKhan
Physicist
Hmm build and whip granary now and then regrow for a 2 pop settler whip? I want to get the bronze connected asap.
Delhi can then slow build workers in between growing while unhappy wears off.
Ironworking is a big investment and what do we get for it.
Zero tech trade value, 1 possible (not even guaranteed) special worked tile in capital and slightly more efficient barb city raiders that can't be built for many turns.
I'd much prefer Writing-Aesthetics and trying to backfill Ironworking and Alphabet through trades. I think we have a legit shot at getting some trade value out of it and it gets us into GLib in good time wich I always try and make the most use of with a Philo leader.
The only way we can possibly have anything worth trading against deity teams is by lots of bulbing early on until we get a decent military unit to try and take advantage of.
Even taking barb cities is less important to me than getting the 2 free GScis with a philo leader.
We can take cities with axes, but I'll go with majority decision.
Delhi can then slow build workers in between growing while unhappy wears off.
Ironworking is a big investment and what do we get for it.
Zero tech trade value, 1 possible (not even guaranteed) special worked tile in capital and slightly more efficient barb city raiders that can't be built for many turns.
I'd much prefer Writing-Aesthetics and trying to backfill Ironworking and Alphabet through trades. I think we have a legit shot at getting some trade value out of it and it gets us into GLib in good time wich I always try and make the most use of with a Philo leader.
The only way we can possibly have anything worth trading against deity teams is by lots of bulbing early on until we get a decent military unit to try and take advantage of.
Even taking barb cities is less important to me than getting the 2 free GScis with a philo leader.
We can take cities with axes, but I'll go with majority decision.
shyuhe
Deity
But we don't want to give up any barb cities to the AI - we're falling behind in expansion already. So I don't mind IW. Either way, I think we want writing first for the philosophical GS.
@all - Are we going to plant any cottages anywhere? We need to figure out what improvements we'll be using in the majority of our cities to maximize our tile improvement usage.
@all - Are we going to plant any cottages anywhere? We need to figure out what improvements we'll be using in the majority of our cities to maximize our tile improvement usage.
PK, unfortunately we won't have trading partners for long time. We have to meet Willem (I consider this sort of priority) but he (or Churchill), has found Buddhism so he'd not like us too much.
The game is very difficult b/c Toku team won't trade us until we get pleased as average attitude (each player in the team must agree on the deals) and Monty/Ragnar are paranoid to plan war against us at any time...
Swords are a lot more efficient than axes vs barb cities and if we have iron there is a good chance to trade the copper for extra bonus and diplo.
Writing 1st is beyond doubt. But unless we find some marble I dont see us going for the aesthetics.
forgot: there is a visible barb border city at the west-most part of the map and probably is not the only one. If we get some barb cities IW will pay off since we would be able to run some deficit research
The game is very difficult b/c Toku team won't trade us until we get pleased as average attitude (each player in the team must agree on the deals) and Monty/Ragnar are paranoid to plan war against us at any time...
Swords are a lot more efficient than axes vs barb cities and if we have iron there is a good chance to trade the copper for extra bonus and diplo.
Writing 1st is beyond doubt. But unless we find some marble I dont see us going for the aesthetics.
forgot: there is a visible barb border city at the west-most part of the map and probably is not the only one. If we get some barb cities IW will pay off since we would be able to run some deficit research
The Rook
King
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 788
Religion
I'm in favour of switching to Hinduism too. Being spiritual, we can always change our mind without penalty if necessary, and the extra happiness is always welcome. Hinduism should give more + for our relationship with Monty than with Ragnar in the long run. I'm a little concerned that with Ragnar being the founder of Judaism he will shortly become -2 for religion. Surely this would take him down to annoyed unless we can get more pluses? I mean +1 years of peace, -1 base, -1 level and -2 religion equals -3 or annoyed. Presumably if Ragnar is annoyed and Monty is cautious then that would take the team average down to annoyed? Of course if we could get HR then that should keep Ragnar cautious, and with a little more diplo we could get the team to pleased. If they dow us in the mean time, forget all of the above...
Diplo
Is it worth meeting Willem/Churchill any earlier than we need to? It's unlikely they will like us, and trading with them will almost certainly anger Ragnar/Monty. Would it be possible to trade techs with Willem/Churchill without "traded with worst enemy" penalty if we can do exact trades once we have Currency (Bestsss)? I'm very concerned about Toku/Joao, it could be very tricky to get the team to pleased, and we seem like a natural target for them. So I would be in favour of trying to befriend Monty/Ragnar, a war on two fronts against 4 neighbouring AIs is just too much. Hopefully Monty/Ragnar will seal off Willem/Churchill, so if the two teams end up fighting we have the option of joining a phony war.
Settling
I think obsolete's proposed second site has merit. I'm a little concerned that we could lose the wheat if we settle on the hill, but I suspect that the defensive bonus could come in handy. The copper/rice site would be nice to claim soon too. It would be good to know where precisely Toku/Joao are located, so we can have an idea of the most likely area they would target in the event of a war, as we also plan to settle sites on the west. I see lots of Tundra to the south, hopefully Toku/Joao have been given junk land.
Tech
Writing next, I'm not sure what after that. As Duckweed mentions, we may need to do a fair amount of self research before we can potentially get any trades. Do we plan on heading for Monarchy soon? It should at least help diplo with Monty/Ragnar, and there may be an outside shot of getting Joao within striking distance of friendly (if we utilise trade relations), potentially averaging the team to pleased. On the way we could pick up monasteries and cheap temples. Another random thought... "if" we could do exact trades without diplo penalty, then perhaps we could head to Currency, and just maybe trade for Monarchy with Willem/Churchill (Alphabet+gold for example).
I'm in favour of switching to Hinduism too. Being spiritual, we can always change our mind without penalty if necessary, and the extra happiness is always welcome. Hinduism should give more + for our relationship with Monty than with Ragnar in the long run. I'm a little concerned that with Ragnar being the founder of Judaism he will shortly become -2 for religion. Surely this would take him down to annoyed unless we can get more pluses? I mean +1 years of peace, -1 base, -1 level and -2 religion equals -3 or annoyed. Presumably if Ragnar is annoyed and Monty is cautious then that would take the team average down to annoyed? Of course if we could get HR then that should keep Ragnar cautious, and with a little more diplo we could get the team to pleased. If they dow us in the mean time, forget all of the above...
Diplo
Is it worth meeting Willem/Churchill any earlier than we need to? It's unlikely they will like us, and trading with them will almost certainly anger Ragnar/Monty. Would it be possible to trade techs with Willem/Churchill without "traded with worst enemy" penalty if we can do exact trades once we have Currency (Bestsss)? I'm very concerned about Toku/Joao, it could be very tricky to get the team to pleased, and we seem like a natural target for them. So I would be in favour of trying to befriend Monty/Ragnar, a war on two fronts against 4 neighbouring AIs is just too much. Hopefully Monty/Ragnar will seal off Willem/Churchill, so if the two teams end up fighting we have the option of joining a phony war.
Settling
I think obsolete's proposed second site has merit. I'm a little concerned that we could lose the wheat if we settle on the hill, but I suspect that the defensive bonus could come in handy. The copper/rice site would be nice to claim soon too. It would be good to know where precisely Toku/Joao are located, so we can have an idea of the most likely area they would target in the event of a war, as we also plan to settle sites on the west. I see lots of Tundra to the south, hopefully Toku/Joao have been given junk land.
Tech
Writing next, I'm not sure what after that. As Duckweed mentions, we may need to do a fair amount of self research before we can potentially get any trades. Do we plan on heading for Monarchy soon? It should at least help diplo with Monty/Ragnar, and there may be an outside shot of getting Joao within striking distance of friendly (if we utilise trade relations), potentially averaging the team to pleased. On the way we could pick up monasteries and cheap temples. Another random thought... "if" we could do exact trades without diplo penalty, then perhaps we could head to Currency, and just maybe trade for Monarchy with Willem/Churchill (Alphabet+gold for example).
Worst enemy penalty is quite predictable but to fit the price to the AI some gold must be utilized: either we fit the deal or the AI. Zero value favoring the AI doesn't do anything for trade w/ the worst enemy.
It's possible to calculate how much will be the effect and since Ragnar's team knows us for long time (the hate decreases each turn and it depends on the turns the civs know each other) in the beginning we can even fit some deals favoring Willem's team w/o triggering the diplo penalty.
I want to meet them since the reason above: they will hate us less if we trade w/ Ragnar if they know us for longer period of time. Also we will know if Monty gets into war mode odds to target us and not them (depends on land-target and Willem's power ).
After currency we can try to research potential stuff for its trade value but it won't be any easy.
(I tried to explain how worst enemy hate approximately works in the Taxman thread)
It's possible to calculate how much will be the effect and since Ragnar's team knows us for long time (the hate decreases each turn and it depends on the turns the civs know each other) in the beginning we can even fit some deals favoring Willem's team w/o triggering the diplo penalty.
I want to meet them since the reason above: they will hate us less if we trade w/ Ragnar if they know us for longer period of time. Also we will know if Monty gets into war mode odds to target us and not them (depends on land-target and Willem's power ).
After currency we can try to research potential stuff for its trade value but it won't be any easy.
(I tried to explain how worst enemy hate approximately works in the Taxman thread)
The Rook
King
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 788
@Bestsss
So if we balance our trades with gold rather than the more conventional "partially research tech" method, then we could theoretically trade freely and precisely with Willem/Churchill and Monty/Ragnar without penalty from either. I was thinking Alphabet+gold for Monarchy might not be too far fetched, though there are ifs and buts. It's probably futile anyway, when one AI starts demanding tribute, cancel deals, join war etc. Very unlucky to draw two teams that only trade at pleased IMO.
So if we balance our trades with gold rather than the more conventional "partially research tech" method, then we could theoretically trade freely and precisely with Willem/Churchill and Monty/Ragnar without penalty from either. I was thinking Alphabet+gold for Monarchy might not be too far fetched, though there are ifs and buts. It's probably futile anyway, when one AI starts demanding tribute, cancel deals, join war etc. Very unlucky to draw two teams that only trade at pleased IMO.
>>So if we balance our trades with gold rather than the more conventional "partially research tech"
Both works but even w/ partial research it won't be perfect fit. Partial research+gold perhaps would be the best. The gold weights more than the raw beakers though (but it's not so simple).
>>It's probably futile anyway, when one AI starts demanding tribute, cancel deals, join war etc. Very unlucky to draw two teams that only trade at pleased IMO.
Yeah, gold demands totally screw that in general, it's very mean technique by the AI.
While speaking of demands it's possible (due to bug) the AI to request a single resource, happens if 2 AIs request the same resource in the same turn when you have 2.
Both works but even w/ partial research it won't be perfect fit. Partial research+gold perhaps would be the best. The gold weights more than the raw beakers though (but it's not so simple).
>>It's probably futile anyway, when one AI starts demanding tribute, cancel deals, join war etc. Very unlucky to draw two teams that only trade at pleased IMO.
Yeah, gold demands totally screw that in general, it's very mean technique by the AI.
While speaking of demands it's possible (due to bug) the AI to request a single resource, happens if 2 AIs request the same resource in the same turn when you have 2.
There's more issues for the next set. Please clearly state your plan regarding the tech and city build or which one you agree on, so that current player will be easy to make his decision.
Here's my detailed proposal:
Tech Writing->IW There's another barbarian city near the western Spice
Edit: or IW->Writing depend on lib or barrack 1st in capital
Delhi:
Finished Worker->Granary and whip next turn->finish archer->barrack or lib to grow to size 7 or a scout to meat Willem team->whip the 3rd worker ( I think worker is better than settler since 1 worker is stuck in Bombay and we need 2 workers for roading to and improvement in the new city)
new worker finish the 3rd FP irrigation and then road to 3rd city site -- 1E of the copper
Note: I think it's would be better to move the western warrior NW(edit: should be NE) to prevent barbarian from spawning city on that yellow hill.
Bombay:
Finish archer->granary->lib
Here's my detailed proposal:
Tech Writing->IW There's another barbarian city near the western Spice
Edit: or IW->Writing depend on lib or barrack 1st in capital
Delhi:
Finished Worker->Granary and whip next turn->finish archer->barrack or lib to grow to size 7 or a scout to meat Willem team->whip the 3rd worker ( I think worker is better than settler since 1 worker is stuck in Bombay and we need 2 workers for roading to and improvement in the new city)
new worker finish the 3rd FP irrigation and then road to 3rd city site -- 1E of the copper
Note: I think it's would be better to move the western warrior NW(edit: should be NE) to prevent barbarian from spawning city on that yellow hill.
Bombay:
Finish archer->granary->lib
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