The last challenge -- Team game -- Deity trial

[Dirk1302]

Have to open the save really. But some comments,

Don't stop the war if it costs us anything. It's risky as well, Monty _team could go for us next. If Monty has to vassalize to Churchill so be it.

I would only go with mass specs after switching to pacifism, maybe we can finish edu manually, then bulb lib? As long as we can't bulb both i don't see the need to go all out on specs. But i'd have to look at the save to be sure here.

I'd spread the religion as long as there aren't more important things to do. After teching edu we'll need to build/whip 6 unis fast for oxford.

 

[bestsss]

Going mass spec can allow bulbing lib in 720AD or 740AD. It's not very efficient but can save 2-3 turns. Mass spec means both Delhi and the copper city (viya. doh can never spell it) will end up w/ close to zero food but not starved.
Manual education means we can't get calendar and compass in order to bulb liberalism.
So it's either manual liberalism w/ single bulb of education or a bulb of education + bulb of liberalism (and getting the rest either manually or by trading).

---
I'd prefer to play in few hours but if i dont get any input I can delay it one more day (can't play on Friday I think or at least not very sober).

So how much diplo on worst enemy trades I can sacrifice? In less than 18-20 turns we can possibly have ability to train cuirassiers (and we have iron, I can't count how many times I have opted for them since I didn't have iron to get steel for draft/cannons... no jokes, please).
I don't really believe we are in position to strike the nuts but still if the war goes bad for them, we can prey on the weak.

 

[Duckweed]

I'd prefer double bulb of Edu + Lib.

Delhi can switch to Forge and slow down the current GS a little bit to make it born in the same time as the Forge. Specially I don't like to see the idle Iron tile and those riverside hill tiles.

Spread AP religion is good.

If we can trade both team, it's good.

No need to stop the war.

You may trade Edu when the lib race is safe.

 

[Dirk1302]

^Agree with this, if it's possible to double bulb it's worth some sacrifice in tiles worked.

 

[obsolete]

I don't see how Willem's team grabbing all of Monte is nothing to worry about. That will all be used against us. Furthermore, Willem is very likely to backstab us. He loves to backstab, and will do so even at pleased without any reason for it.

Anyhow, I'm not going to argue much. This is probably going to be one of my last games here before I retire from the genre. I just feel so bored with this game, and the defects of the last patch haven't helped.

 

[bestsss]

fine..
no good tiles will be forfeit for the mass spec. the rest of the cities will work the cottages.
--
so i will play till liberalism, either us or... whoever goes there 1st.
my estimation is either 720AD or 740AD.
---

 

[bestsss]

Some ok news: we are about to lay hands (use a great scientist to bulb it) over the sought-after liberalism in 720AD (like planned).

I played in 2 parts since promised my girlfriend to cook the dinner.

Bad news is that Monty is most likely after nationalism and we can't get anything better since Joao can research liberalism as well, so I even decided to send the copper city into full starvation and hurry a turn.
Plus some unpleasant events struck me, include the mountain peak one x.x...

The good news is that Joao gift us the secret of feudalism which I took.

I attached the save, after the dinner and all I will post some notes.

 

[bestsss]

Turn set summary:
* Made some tile changes, including delaying the great scientist in Delhi
* Got copper the mine busted by an event. Researched monotheism and switched to it on the next turn. Made something truly stupid and in Draft-to-be city instead of granary made the overflow into library (switched to wealth before to use organized religion boost)
* Got this trade a few turns later: Drama+Paper for Compass+Philosophy with Ragnar.

Spoiler :

* Gifted a city to joao:

Spoiler :

* Few turns later another bad event:

Spoiler :

* But at least Joao showed he like the horsies, riding them much? He is not Cathy but who knows?
And the tech. situation past that.

Spoiler :

* 680AD asked 44 gold from our friend Monty(slav) and he was happy to help.
* 700AD decided to sacrifice one population and get a great scientists earlier.
* 720AD got the great scientist that can bulb the liberalism.

Renewed/renegotiated the resource deals, so we can't be asked to cancel them. War side: Willem/Churchill are crushing Monty/Ragnar (wow) like matchstick. If we get nationalism from the liberalism, and trade to Willem... Monty will be lost.

We can switch out the religion and trade education now. But nothing better than the nationalism can hope for. We can't even take printing press since we can't trade for... will lose liberalism bulb option.
Put one artist in the wine city since no good tile can be worked. We are short on workers but I think we need slavery to get 'em.
Basically we are quite hammer poor.

Current Tech:

Spoiler :

Some universities are scheduled and the copper city has very good surplus to make it for the dead one.
Renamed the cities since I could not remember the names so now they got nicks based on the purpose - obsolete's style.

edit: the save is in the previous post

 

[obsolete]

It looks like Joao is going after lib too, this is not good.

I'll check out the save later on. Please do tell me we have another scientist waiting to bulb this turn already.

 

[bestsss]

It looks like Joao is going after lib too, this is not good.

I'll check out the save later on. Please do tell me we have another scientist waiting to bulb this turn already.

Sure, my first sentence :we are about to lay hands (use a great scientist to bulb it) over the sought-after liberalism in 720AD (like planned).

 

[shyuhe]

So we're getting nationalism then? Not great, but at least it's better than giving Joao a free tech. I think we should try gunning for cuirassiers to backstab (if you'd call it that) Monty. They're running around with some seriously outdated troops (no knights or muskets) so they shouldn't last too long. We may have to bribe peace before we launch an offensive though, to make sure they don't vassal to Willem's team.

 

[obsolete]

I don't have a problem with going cuirassiers. But it will take a while to tech for them, and then we have to build them, etc. Also, about bribing them to peace, don't forget there is a bug in the latest patch that broke peace deals. IThird parties can cause an AI to both DoW, and make peace in the same turn. You can do this every turn, add infinitum. Also, the AI's will often just re-dow the next turn after anyway. So you can't be sure that peace will stick at all.

 

[bestsss]

We can get the horsies riders in 8 or 9 turns.

W/ some trading we should have:
nationalism (from liberalism), gunpowder (Churchill->edu), music(Churchill-edu),
printing press (Joao->nat, can trade to Churchill), guilds, banks. Horse back riding can also be taken in the trades but I don't know if worth.
We can even attempt for the great merchant of economics, although that would be a gamble vs Joao.

The main problem is that we don't have real production outside the whip. I'd prefer the slower draft/cannon here but if you think the horses are the way to go even better
---
I mentioned already that peace deals are just cease fire w/o any binding peace, this is why I don't like the idea. Worst of all is that the AI has special 'memory' like recently_attacked, so they are extra eager to redeclare...

 

[Dirk1302]

That's a bit of a tricky decision. I think we can do some real damage on Monty picking up some nice land in ~15 turns. But if he has vassalized by that time we would have been better of concentrating on Oxford.

 

[Duckweed]

Pretty good, we are wining the Lib race.

I'm not sure cuirs blitz can be the best idea here. There are some problems. We will be facing more cities and units and cuirs need the support of spies and this cost is not trivial for many cities. I'd prefer a slow cannon war. But the major problem is do we have the chance before Monty/Ragnar are defeated?

Roster:

Bestsss -- just played
Shyuhe -- UP
Dirk1302 -- On deck
Duckweed
Obsolete

The Rook -- tell when you are ready to roll.

 

[Duckweed]

Shyuhe, any plan?

 

[shyuhe]

General plan - swap to slavery to whip out universities. Unfortunately, it looks like Angle is our best bet for university #9, which sucks since it lacks food and hammers. I'll probably whip the library and chop its university. Delhi will start building Oxford while other cities will get forges and barracks in place.

Liberalism - nationalism I guess? Right now, it doesn't look like we have any good trade opportunities available because of diplo issues. Since Monty is busy with war right now, we can swap to NSR which I think should bump Churchill up enough to trade with him. The big question is if we want to though, since it might bring negative diplo points with Monty...

Are we going to go for a mounted war or a cannon based war? Given the tech position, I'd prefer mounted war. We can take nationalism from liberalism and tech MT and trade for gunpowder from Churchill/Willem. We can then whip out the cuirassiers (~20?) before Monty can get a good countering tech. We just have to make sure we strike before they can get MT themselves (highly unlikely).

Thoughts?

 

[bestsss]

look at my previous note:
we have very good options to trade but we have to switch out the religion which would suck (can use OR) but after the trading you can switch back (in 5 turns).
We should be able to trade for:
machinery(Churchill), gunpowder (Churchill->edu), printing press (Joao->nat, can trade to Churchill), music(Churchill), guilds(Churchill->Nat), Banks (Churchill->printing press).
Or something in this line.
---
Monty is most likely after MT (he has not researched anything after philosophy which was like 8 turns ago, so I believe his current research is nationalism), he doesn't have gunpowder but the odds to get all that before we are ready are too high to pass.
I prefer cannons here. We need more research and have to set up the draft but given the limited production capabilities draft/cannon looks stronger and far more fail-proof (esp. w/ rifles)

 

[Dirk1302]

I don't care that Monty is after MT, ais entrenched lb's are more difficult to handle than the odd cuirassier Monty has running around. The opportunity window for cuirassier war is until rifles. But there is a fair chance Monty will vassalize the next 20 turns.

 

[Duckweed]

The major problem of Cuir war is the cost, ~20 is not enough. We need at least 30 cuirs and 15 spies to start in order to march continuously (AI's pikemans is more of a problem than Cuirs), plus the totally stop of research since we need spy support for every city. Moreover, MT is a waste if Monty/Ragnar are defeated before we can lay our hand.