The Monarchists' Cookbook Bullpen

[Winston Hughes]

I think Napoleon is clearly stonger than most of the rest of that list.

I agree. Au revoir shorty.

Churchill is strong once his UU comes online.

Not an especially good reason for disregarding my namesake, since a later UU is unlikely to make much of a difference here. But a reason nonetheless. Goodbye baldy.

I think Genghis, Hammy, Toku, or Charlemagne would present a challenge assuming we didn't get a solid start/fit.

The challenge bit depends as much on the distribution and land-quality of the AIs as it does on our own start (we had a pretty crappy starting area in the first MC, but the AIs were utterly hamstrung by the map).

I agree that any of those guys should make for an interesting game, though. Personally, unless someone has a more substantive argument, I'd go for Hammy just because I've played less games with him than with the others.

I prefer shorter turnsets, especially earlier on. I know that people like to play out what they had in mind, but I would rather have more rounds during the crucial early periods and check our egos at the door when it comes to voting

Hmm, I half expected everyone to disagree on shortening the turnsets. But since you're of the same opinion, I'm going to go a step further and raise the idea of playing 60 turn rounds from the very beginning. A greater focus on the small decisions would be most educational, especially if the tougher map seriously limits the range of strategic options (which seems inevitable imo).

Any takers? Or is this just too damned slow for you guys?

 

[futurehermit]

I would be in favour of 60 turn rounds from the beginning, especially if we are toughening up the situation. I don't know that I've ever played a game with Hammy, so I would be in favour of him.

 

[r_rolo1]

Hammy is basically Asoka with shock archers . He can be very powerful in the hands of a human..... if used properly that is ( he doesn't get much love here in the CFC, dunno why ... ). I think it would be a nice one for showing that there are no bad leaders....

 

[IagoAlberto]

Just the 2cents of a lurker, but as Rolo says hammy is quite underrated. Agressive and organized have a great synergy for dommination and conquest victories. The UU is pretty good as Monty recently discovered in a game of mine, much to his chagrin! The UB isn't great early on but later on its a great help in combating late game unhealthiness. Nonetheless, he might be a solid choice since he doesn't start particularly fast and organized isn't a great early game trait.

 

[Bleys]

I sent Sistuil a PM asking if he would be willing to create our next map. I like all the input so far, and I am not against shortening the first rounds a bit (but not as short as they were in game 1, somewhere in between) and I also like the idea of playing Hammu, a very underused leader that gets very little RPC love.

I told Sistuil that all we need is a map that doesnt "fit" or have any of those game-breaking resources like Gold, Silver, Gems in the BFC, or stone-marble within 2nd-city range, etc., and even suggested he could hand-pick AIs that are especially tough for Hammu to deal with (Darius and HC come to mind, a strong techer and a wonder-whore with strong anti-Archer UUs). I hope you guys dont mind me doing that. If he cant or doesnt wish too, then I will look for another Emp+ level player to hook us up. I am planning to start the next round a week from today, Thursday the 10th. For my deputy chief, I choose Rolo, if he is available.

I was also thinking, since Vale is sort of "out" of this next game, maybe he would create the game for us if Sistuil cant. How do you guys feel about that? He has REALLY helped me a ton, not kidding, I have a positive feeling about making the "permanent" move to Emperor myself just with what I have learned these first 2 MC games.

 

[vale]

I could do it. I could try to roll it up this week while I have some free time.

 

[Winston Hughes]

Next thursday sounds good to me, and I'm sure either Sis or vale would do a top-notch job.

With regards to the map, what would you guys think about Tectonics?

Some comments on the script, and its suitability for an MC game:

Spoiler :

I've been trying out the version that comes with the new patch, and I can't see any obvious difference from the maps I generated with the unofficial script last year (though I guess some of the kinks may have been ironed out).

What that means is that they're very unpredictable - you might get something that looks a lot like a conventional Pangea or Continents map, or you might get something quite different from any map you've ever seen before.

On the plus side, this ensures you have very little to go on at the start, which is perfect for a game like this, and makes exploration a lot more enjoyable imo. It also has a habit of producing strategically significant features like choke points, inland seas, mountain ranges, and uninhabited mini-continents, all of which make for a more varied playing experience.

One drawback (when you don't have someone to check the map in advance) is that you'll get quite a few games where several of the AIs are hopelessly screwed by their start. For example, it's not that uncommon to see two or three civs packed into a pathetically small and unwelcoming mini-continent, totally writing them off as serious opponents. But, if the map is being hand-picked with difficulty as one of the criteria, this shouldn't be an issue.

What might be a problem, though, is the difference in the terrain as compared to the most commonly used map scripts (ie. the ones used by Refar's Script Chooser).

In particular, what you don't get (usually at least) is the familiar 'banded' effect, whereby a loose band of jungle-covered grassland runs right around the planet (except where there's water, of course), and then, moving north or south, you find bands of other terrain types until you reach tundra and then ice.

With Tectonics, what you tend to get instead is patches of different terrains, still tied to the distance from the equator (so you won't see ice in the tropics), but much less regular. Moreover, these patches are often quite uniform, so you'll see swathes of plains hills with not a grassland in sight (to give a fairly common example).

Personally, I really like this effect, as it feels much more natural and much less predictable. However, it is very different from the usual experience, and so might be off-putting for some players.

There's a lot more that could be said for and against the Tectonics script, but I've already written an essay. If anyone's interested, I'd suggest you play around with the settings and have a look for yourself.

 

[Bleys]

I got a reply from Sistiutil:

Sure, that doesn't sound too time-consuming, so I think I can oblige. Let me know the parameters you want for the map, game speed, etc. and I'll take it from there. I'll probably provide you with three options for you to choose from.

I actually feel bad about not thinking to ask Vale first, but maybe after this one, Vale can become our "Official" Map-Making Target-Best-Ball player. What that means is he makes the map, and plays the first couple rounds, but his save is never chosen officially, it becomes a sort of "benchmark" game, to give the players an idea of the potential for that particular turn. Even using a bit of his pre-knowledge of the map wouldnt hurt, it would make his save that much stronger for comparison purposes. Not to the point of "I settled here because I knew Horses would pop in the BFC", but knowing which direction an AI is that can be cut off with a strategic city, etc.

Would you be interested in trying this "Benchmark" role in the next game Vale? I really want you to play despite not being eligible, and I think this is a good way for us players to test our own techniques and plans against a strong player.

With regard to the parameters to send Sisiutil, I suggest the following:

Hammurabi, Monarch, Epic, Tectonics map, 60% Water, Normal aridity

No gold, silver, gems, or metals in the BFC.

Copper, Horses and or Iron reachable in 2nd city range is OK but not required

Gold, Silver, Gems, Stone and Marble reachable in "3rd city" range, or in "poor food/difficult" areas, like marble in all-Tundra with very little food, or stone in all desert with very little food, etc, stuff like that.

AIs in reasonable positions relevant to each other and their own "space" (no 3-AI tiny landmasses, etc, as Winston mentioned).

Any others? Thats not too bad, I generated a few maps myself and it was easy to pop into the WB and check for those conditions, and 2 of the 3 I generated were actually quite good for our purposes.

 

[futurehermit]

Copper and or Iron reachable in 2nd city range

why should this be required?

 

[Bleys]

why should this be required?

Heh, noticed that it implied "required" myself, and edited it. I meant to say "OK but not required" and also added Horses.

Check it now, fh, see if thats OK.

 

[futurehermit]

looks fine to me

 

[Winston Hughes]

Nearly there, but too wordy imo.

How about:

Required:
Hammurabi, Monarch, Epic, Tectonics map, 60% Water, Normal Aridity.

No goody huts. No random events.

All other settings as standard.

No gold, silver, gems, marble, stone, or metals in the BFC.

Ideally:
Strong AI starts with good local terrain.

Weak player start with bad local terrain.

On reflection, though, asking Sisiutil to do it wasn't the smartest move. Not that he'll do a bad job, of course. It's just that impatient ALC fans are going to lynch us if it delays their fix.

Edit: Added no huts and no events. Thoughts?

 

[Sisiutil]

On reflection, though, asking Sisiutil to do it wasn't the smartest move. Not that he'll do a bad job, of course. It's just that impatient ALC fans are going to lynch us if it delays their fix.

Edit: Added no huts and no events. Thoughts?

It won't delay me that much. Fortunately for you guys you're asking at the right time, at the beginning of a new ALC, when the play goes quickly and can therefore be posted fast to sate the ravenous hunger the ALC acolytes have for content.

I'll generate three potential maps that fit the bill tonight and post them here.

I take it that "All other settings as standard" applies to map size and number of civs.

 

[futurehermit]

I like the idea of turning hunts and events off at least once to see how it goes. I like the flavour they add, but when comparing saves it means that we ALWAYS get the best goody huts/events and that seems to positively skew things imo.

Thanks for generating maps for us Sisiutil!

 

[r_rolo1]

No problem S man ... I'm pretty sure that we'll choose the worst map out of the three

And I want the last chapter of Scipio's spy , now!!!!! ( just to show that it is not only the ALC acolytes that press you )

 

[Bleys]

No huts is ok, I kinda like events though, I think in the end, the events "even out", but huts are indeed HUGE game-changers, because of when you get them, mostly.

We appreciate the help S, I tried a few test generates myself, just to see how "tricky" it would be, and it was fine. No real need to do 3, if the first one fits the bill, we can just go with it.

One favor, though, please dont post a screenie of the opening position. With these, we want folks to NOT discuss the starting strats, and play however they see fit with as little outside influence as possible. Otherwise, we are likely to have 5 saves that all look the same, since the "best strat" was probably fleshed out in pre-game chat. We arent in a hurry either, any time in the next week is fine, heh. Thats why I asked early, so we could hammer out what we want for a map and still have plenty of time leftover for you to generate it.

 

[Sisiutil]

Okay, here you go. I followed Winston Hughes' specs to the letter in generating the map, and then applied Bleys' criteria before accepting it. I went through a half-dozen regenerations before I got one that I figured would fit the bill for what you were after. (The RNG kept throwing you guys metals in the capital's BFC. It won't do it for my starts, oh no, but for you guys... ) I think you'll find the map significantly challenging.

I only did one little WB tweak, because it was perfect in every other respect. I'll tell you about that later, maybe when your game is done, if you really want to know.

By the way, I chose all the civs. 'Cause I normally never do that, and it's fun to play god. I didn't choose their starting positions, though I did check them. It should be... interesting, to say the least.

 

[ranion]

Okay, here you go. I followed Winston Hughes' specs to the letter in generating the map, and then applied Bleys' criteria before accepting it. I went through a half-dozen regenerations before I got one that I figured would fit the bill for what you were after. (The RNG kept throwing you guys metals in the capital's BFC. It won't do it for my starts, oh no, but for you guys... ) I think you'll find the map significantly challenging.

I only did one little WB tweak, because it was perfect in every other respect. I'll tell you about that later, maybe when your game is done, if you really want to know.

By the way, I chose all the civs. 'Cause I normally never do that, and it's fun to play god. I didn't choose their starting positions, though I did check them. It should be... interesting, to say the least.

sounds like fun, i think its time to begin strategizing...

 

[Winston Hughes]

@Sisiutil:

Thanks man. Looking forward to seeing what you've cooked up.

EDIT:

sounds like fun, i think its time to begin strategizing...

Are you making mischief here, Mr Ranion? Or have you not been following the previous discussion?

In case it's the latter, I should point out that the game isn't scheduled to start for another week (though that might change, we'll have to wait for Bleys), and that we do not discuss strategy, or anything else about the start, before we've played the first round.

Also, at the present time, we don't even know how long the first round will be. So you can't play ahead if you want to join the MC fun.

Of course, if you want to begin strategising on your own, then there's no problem. Just don't breathe a word of it to anyone else - they might steal your ideas!

 

[futurehermit]

Thanks Sisiutil! I'm looking forward to this one, because I don't think I have ever played Hammurabi