The most progressive country in the world

[Loppan Torkel]

Sweden of course.

In the news today -

Today the new Scholastic Aptitude Test, in which mathematics has been given a higher profile, is taken by many young people, but there is no suitable sample of individuals diagnosed with dyscalculia.

For dyslexics have a custom test for many years but for dyscalculics, who have problems with math, there is nothing.

- I really wanted to get this to work so I bought a book that was adapted for the Scholastic Aptitude Test, says Pernilla Teuchler who previously done the exam and then had big problems with the math portion.

- When I opened the book, I thought just that there's no way, I can not do this.

But then she changed her mind and struggled her way through the book.

- I did not really get more after that and when I did the exam again as I got high scores in English and Swedish section, but mathematics was screwed.

Dyscalculia is a mathematical equivalent of dyslexia, and a dyscalculics may have problems with, for example to understand how big a number is or do simple calculations.

Ann-Louise Ljungblad is an advisor on Special Needs Education, and she thinks that there should be a suitable test. She draws parallels to the test dyslexics may, for example, where some parts are read out.

- You would need a calculator and a math formulas to come into its own.

Is not cheating with calculator?

- No it is not, this is about a disability that is not of a transient nature but something that you might get to work with throughout life. You may never get a quick head count, but you can still hit and strategies that work. Then it's up to us in the system to support that the best way.

National Agency, in charge of the exam, should according to the law promote equal treatment regardless of disability.

Now the university entrance exam just been redesigned and put more emphasis on the math portion, but the work to align the test has only just begun, according to Asa Rurling, head of the sample on Higher Education.

- Now we are in the situation we are, the National Agency has decided to introduce this new test, she says.

- You can discuss the order of things to come but now it's like this and we will review what we can do.

It is not clear when a sample is suitable for dyscalculics can be made.

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=4771495

What do you think about this? Aren't women in general better at language? Would that in case also be something to rectify in the test?

 

[aelf]

Are you against help for dyslexics?

 

[CommonKnowledge]

If the test is proportioned in such a way as to favour either language or maths then I can see there would be a problem - would make sense to just have it 50:50. When I applied to university I wasn't asked to take any aptitude tests, just meet the entry requirements, but when I've applied for jobs they sometimes ask me to do verbal and mathematical reasoning tests weighted 50:50.

 

[Verbose]

Sweden most progressive?

It certainly is the no 1 national "feel-good factor", and it certainly likes to think of itself like that. Sometimes it does mean it forces Sweden to attempt certain things it otherwise wouldn't. It's progressiveness is otoh kind of lop-sided at times. Being progressive about some things somehow count more than being progressive about certain other things...

 

[Loppan Torkel]

Are you against help for dyslexics?

Of course not. I want the test constructed so that all people taking it end up on the same score.

@Verbose: I don't disagree, but it's so vague. What things are you referring to?

 

[Verbose]

@Verbose: I don't disagree, but it's so vague. What things are you referring to?

Well, you read Maciej Zaremba in DN? Take his series of articles about bullying in the Swedish workplace, and the comparison with the seriously limp Swedish response to it compared to the very pro-active French legislation against it for example.
http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/fritt-fram-i-sverige-men-brottsligt-i-frankrike

Otherwise, just generally, the no 1 SIGN of modernity and progressivism in post-WWII times has always been "being wealthy". Sweden used to no 3 or so, after the US and Switzerland. Only we today find ourselves distanced by a slew of countries, while the US and Switzerland are holding on, more or less.

Oh, and one of my pet peeves is the complete neglect of funding for research in the social sciences, history and the humanities in Sweden. Very irrational, and we are already paying for it in the international university rankings.

(I've got a song about this, but I might spare you for now.)

 

[aelf]

Of course not. I want the test constructed so that all people taking it end up on the same score.

So you're against help for dyslexics?

 

[Theige]

My first thought for most progressive was Denmark.

Mostly cause of a good friend's Danish mother, who always tells me how awesome Denmark is.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

So you're against help for dyslexics?

I think diagnoses of various handicaps in most cases are for the better, but there are issues in having a test to compete with others, with one's faults and strengths, on the same terms to get into an education and afterwards to compete with others for a job, unless you've got the "right" diagnose.

There are many people who don't score high on these tests - immigrants for example won't do as well on the Swedish language and word tests. You think they should be able to take the test on their home language instead?!

The thing is - You can get into many educations on grades, on these mentioned tests and "local acceptance" in which you get interviewed and take tests that are made specially for that certain school and education.

I think the same tests for all is most fair. This is just Sweden being too politically correct.

 

[Skwink]

Another thing for the Swedes to gloat about.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

Well, you read Maciej Zaremba in DN? Take his series of articles about bullying in the Swedish workplace, and the comparison with the seriously limp Swedish response to it compared to the very pro-active French legislation against it for example.
http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/fritt-fram-i-sverige-men-brottsligt-i-frankrike

Good article! This really should be introduced in Sweden too and this would be something progressive and sane, unlike many other things we tend to focus on here. Special math tests for dyscalculics?? Why bother at all then? Just give those who get a doctor to diagnose them as dyscalculics a free pass through the math section and see how well it would work out...

 

[Takhisis]

Since you mention dyslexia, that's been translated by some computer program, right? You post in better English usually Torkel.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

I could have sworn I read somewhere that some percentage of people with dyslexia also had dyscalculia. Or vice-versa. I'm sort of busy sorting files to look it up though.

 

[aelf]

I think diagnoses of various handicaps in most cases are for the better, but there are issues in having a test to compete with others, with one's faults and strengths, on the same terms to get into an education and afterwards to compete with others for a job, unless you've got the "right" diagnose.

There are many people who don't score high on these tests - immigrants for example won't do as well on the Swedish language and word tests. You think they should be able to take the test on their home language instead?!

The thing is - You can get into many educations on grades, on these mentioned tests and "local acceptance" in which you get interviewed and take tests that are made specially for that certain school and education.

I think the same tests for all is most fair. This is just Sweden being too politically correct.

I don't see the problem. If you think that accommodating dyslexics is the right thing to do, why wouldn't you agree with accommodating a similar condition as long as it is attested to medically?

 

[amadeus]

Are calculators ordinarily not permitted during the test? If so, why not?

 

[Hehehe]

I don't see the problem. If you think that accommodating dyslexics is the right thing to do, why wouldn't you agree with accommodating a similar condition as long as it is attested to medically?

Just like a person born without legs can never be a fireman (and no accommodation is going to fix that), similarly a person with dyscalculia cannot be an engineer for example (in fact, that could be dangerous even).

I'm not exactly sure what is the Swedish scholastic aptitude test and how much does it matter but if it's just a feel-good test with no real significance then sure, why not accommodate dyscalculics. If it's a test that really matters when choosing careers/universities or something then you really shouldn't study maths if you can't do maths, whatever the reason for your inability may be.

 

[aelf]

Just like a person born without legs can never be a fireman (and no accommodation is going to fix that), similarly a person with dyscalculia cannot be an engineer for example (in fact, that could be dangerous even).

I'm not exactly sure what is the Swedish scholastic aptitude test and how much does it matter but if it's just a feel-good test with no real significance then sure, why not accommodate dyscalculics. If it's a test that really matters when choosing careers/universities or something then you really shouldn't study maths if you can't do maths, whatever the reason for your inability may be.

You do realise that that argument also implies that dyslexic people should not work in jobs that require a lot of reading and writing, which is like most jobs?

Again, if people with dyslexia can be accommodated so that they are not terribly restricted on the kind of careers and courses they can choose, I don't see why it's unreasonable in this case.

 

[Hehehe]

You do realise that that argument also implies that dyslexic people should not work in jobs that require a lot of reading and writing, which is like most jobs?

Again, if people with dyslexia can be accommodated so that they are not terribly restricted on the kind of careers and courses they can choose, I don't see why it's unreasonable in this case.

If we accommodate a dyslexic, what's the worst thing that could happen? He misspells something? (Whether or not we should accommodate them is entirely another matter)

But there are fields dyscalculics simply cannot do (such as engineering and architecture). Those fields rely very heavily on maths. If you cannot do maths, you cannot do engineering. Or would you like to use a bridge designed by a dyscalculic? Would you like to live in a house designed by a dyscalculic? Need I continue this list? Calculating the strength of materials is just an example, almost everything is done using maths in those fields. An engineer who can't do maths is a worthless (and perhaps even dangerous) engineer.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

You do realise that that argument also implies that dyslexic people should not work in jobs that require a lot of reading and writing, which is like most jobs?

Again, if people with dyslexia can be accommodated so that they are not terribly restricted on the kind of careers and courses they can choose, I don't see why it's unreasonable in this case.

If these persons, who have some kind of diagnose, whether it's dyscalculia or dyslexia, get special treatment in the tests - it should also reflect in how their testscores are measured against other people when applying for college. As I explained earlier - there are several other ways to apply for college and some ways aren't suitable for everyone, diagnosed or not.

Why should a person who needs someone to read a text out loud on a test to understand the text, have an advantage to someone who just is a slow reader, when applying to college? Tests are supposed to be discriminatory against those who can't compete in the tests. There are other ways to get into a college education here. If you can't compete in any of these ways, maybe you need to rethink your strategies and apply for something else.

The tests are newly designed and now calculators could be very helpful in some portions of the test. The notion that people with diagnosed dyscalculia should get special treatment on a math test to get into a college education seems ridiculous. I'm not sure you understand how arbitrary some of these diagnoses are given.

You can take a demo of the test here - http://hogskoleprov.hsv.se/hp/2011/ovn/#/xyz

 

[Flying Pig]

You do realise that that argument also implies that dyslexic people should not work in jobs that require a lot of reading and writing, which is like most jobs?

I hate to say it, but yes? Or at least if somebody is no good for a particular job they should not be able to claim that a certain disability gives them a 'right' to do it. If you're dyslexic you should be entitled to help through school, that's a given, but if that means that you haven't got the aptitude for a certain career then, unfortunately, you can't do it.