The New American Cold War

Do you really think Ukraine was conquered by Russia? :lol:
 
JerichoHill said:
Today, the governments or parliam...e by UN Criminal Court, or General Assembley.
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JerichoHill said:
The Ukraine is not that closely tied to Russia. It is only tied because it was conquered a very long time ago
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Simply I think this post has a joke, because there was no conquering of Ukraine by Russia.
 
JerichoHill said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ukraine#Russian_and_Austrian_rule

According to this, yes.

Do you dispute this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Today, the governments or parliaments of 26 countries recognized the 1932-1933 famine as an act of genocide. Among them Ukraine, Argentina, Australia, Canada, Estonia, Hungary, Lithuania, United States, and Vatican City. Still the Holodomor remains a politically charged topic
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Have these countires recognised the famine as genocide only in Ukraine? I ask because it is very important.
 
El Justo said:
Gelion,

i'm surprised that you by-passed my earlier remarks. no comments?
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Sorry, but the responces take time... I will get down to it as soon as I have the time. Your comments were interesting :)
 
Commy said:
Simply I think this post has a joke, because there was no conquering of Ukraine by Russia.
Click to expand...

Then Wiki and the Encyclopedias are wrong that the Ukraine was conquered (multiple times) and at many of those times they were under Russian Rule.

I suppose Stalin just endorsing mass starvation and then offing any relevant political leader is a joke to you too.
 
JerichoHill said:
Gelion,

Read the article. It answers your questions.
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wiki said:
While the famine in Ukraine was a part of a wider famine that also affected other regions of the USSR, the term Holodomor is specifically applied to the events that took place in territories populated by the ethnic Ukrainians. As such, the Holodomor is sometimes referred to as the Ukrainian Genocide
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Which serves to prove my point that the view that you share is aimed at twisting the facts in order to get at the Soveit Union(Russia). Somehow in this article the other parts of the Soviet Union affected by the famine are not discussed. Yes the famine did happen. Maybe it was deliberate (not agreeing or condemning this idea, I did not study it well enough). But to call this policy of genocide, while other areas were also affected (including those populated by ethnic Russians - this is left untold) has only one goal in my opinion. And that goal is demonisation of everything Russian. I could agree with the Soviet demonisation... but not this.
 
Commy said:
Simply I think this post has a joke, because there was no conquering of Ukraine by Russia.
Click to expand...

You're right, Ukraine was progressively absorbed into Russia through Russia's wars with the Austrians, Ottomans, etc. But then there was Russification and the ban of the Ukrainian language in print and in public.
 
Gelion said:
Which serves to prove my point that the view that you share is aimed at twisting the facts in order to get at the Soveit Union(Russia). Somehow in this article the other parts of the Soviet Union affected by the famine are not discussed. Yes the famine did happen. Maybe it was deliberate (not agreeing or condemning this idea, I did not study it well enough). But to call this policy of genocide, while other areas were also affected (including those populated by ethnic Russians - this is left untold) has only one goal in my opinion. And that goal is demonisation of everything Russian. I could agree with the Soviet demonisation... but not this.
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26 countries have signed off on the idea that this famine was in fact an act of genocide. What about that do you not understand?

Less than that many countries have signed off that Darfur is genocide, yet that certainly is.
 
JerichoHill said:
26 countries have signed off on the idea that this famine was in fact an act of genocide. What about that do you not understand?

Less than that many countries have signed off that Darfur is genocide, yet that certainly is.
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Does that mean you refuse to accept my point? Or at least argue with it?
I dont care how many countries signed it. I disagree with the spirit of this document. Furthermore my country is not a part of this agreement. Fortunatelly. It could do so when the spirit of this paper changes. But that is another story...
Please answer my first question(s).
 
Gelion said:
Does that mean you refuse to accept my point? Or at least argue with it?
I dont care how many countries signed it. I disagree with the spirit of this document. Furthermore my country is not a part of this agreement. Fortunatelly. It could do so when the spirit of this paper changes. But that is another story...
Please answer my first question(s).
Click to expand...

You yourself admitted that you don't know much about the issue - so what are you basing your claim that it wasn't genocide on?
 
warpus said:
You yourself admitted that you don't know much about the issue - so what are you basing your claim that it wasn't genocide on?
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I am saying that I do not have enough information about the issue. I cannot decide whether it was a genocide or not. However I am certian of two things:
This was NOT a genocide of Ukrainians by Russian people
The Famine of 1932/33 was not only limited to Ukraine, but a substantial part of USSR.
Thus I disagree with the political statements on this document and its "spirit" while agreeing that the "issue" was a pain to many people and its blame lies largely(mostly) on the Soviet government. The document presented is contrary to both of things I am certain about. Is it clearer now?
 
Enjoy

1) Google it. Read it.

2) Enjoy these article

http://www.ukemonde.com/genocide/emargolis.htm
http://www.historywiz.com/reasons.htm
http://umanitoba.ca/manitoban/2003-2004/1126/nf_02.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4471256.stm

Key Facts
Called Holodomor in Ukrainian - meaning murder by hunger
About a quarter of Ukraine's population wiped out
Seven to 10 million people thought to have died
Children disappeared; cannibalism became widespread

Canada recognizes the Genocide
http://www.ucc.ca/faminegenocide/recognition_of_ukrainian_famine_genocide_1932-33/
America recognizes the Genocide
http://www.brama.com/news/press/2005/11/051123presidentyushchenko_holodomor.html
http://www.faminegenocide.com/resources/bilinsky.html

Again, 26 Nations support the claim that this marked was genocide. Though some claim that it was against peasants, the fact that the Russian military CLOSED THE UKRAINIAN BORDERS speaks to its intent. I suppose Stalin, in his cold hubris, would have termed these other peasant deaths as "collateral damage".

Stalin hated the Ukrainians, as accepted as a fact by Sakharov, revealed in the telegram to Zatonsky and inferred from his polemics with the Yugoslav communist Semich. Stalin decided to collectivize Soviet agriculture and under the cover of collectivization teach the Ukrainians a bloody lesson. Had it not been for Stalinist hubris and the incorporation of the more nationalistlcally minded and less physically decimated Western Ukrainians after 1939, the Ukrainian nation might have never recovered from the Stalinist offensive against the main army of the Ukrainian national movement, the peasants.

Maybe I should bring this to a vote in a separate OT thread.
 
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