The New World Mod

Sword_Of_Geddon said:
A southern california tribe would be a nice thing to have on the map, were the Kumeyaay part of a larger group of tribes, similar to the Powhatan were one of many Algonquian tribes? Moreover, did that group exist around 1000 AD?
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The Kumeyaay were not as far as I am aware part of any larger group of indigenous peoples. They were definitely on the scene circa 1000 A.D. and probably earlier. Their traditional homeland is a resource poor area and they had not advanced beyond stone age culture by the time the Spanish had arrived.

Our city has a five acre Kumeyaay interpretive history site and the local library has a number of Kumeyaay artifacts on display.

Swoggy, this is really a great topic for a mod.
 

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7ronin said:
The Kumeyaay were not as far as I am aware part of any larger group of indigenous peoples. They were definitely on the scene circa 1000 A.D. and probably earlier. Their traditional homeland is a resource poor area and they had not advanced beyond stone age culture by the time the Spanish had arrived.

Our city has a five acre Kumeyaay interpretive history site and the local library has a number of Kumeyaay artifacts on display.

Swoggy, this is really a great topic for a mod.
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I'm glad you think so. Do you think the Kumeyaay could or should be considered for a civilization in this mod?
 
Sword_Of_Geddon said:
Do you think the Kumeyaay could or should be considered for a civilization in this mod?
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I think it depends on the size of your map. If it's a large map with a big empty area on the West Coast of the U.S. and you need some play balance, then put them in. If it's a small map with crowded civs, don't bother. Historically and anthropologically, the Kumeyaay are small potatoes.
 
ShiroKobbure said:
For California the Chumash is another idea for a civ. There Tomol is a good idea for a UU, it may have links to the Polynesian.

Another idea is making all the Californian Indians "Mission Indians"
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Good idea Shiro. :) Swoggy, if you have room on the map, put them in. Or, as Shiro suggests, you can combine all the Southern California tribes into one Civ. I would refrain from calling them "Mission Indians" however. They weren't "mission Indians" until much later in your scenario and, in any case, the term comes with a lot of ideological baggage which makes its use problematic with their contemporary descendents. May I suggest "Socal Tribes?"
 
I've read 1421, the book my Mr. Menzies, and as entertaining as it was, it's still trash. There's almost no history in it, just conjecture. I wouldn't advise having anything to do with the Chinese treasure fleets if you want your mod to have historical integrity. :) Convincing, provided one does not follow up his references. Upon looking in to it, one can see that at best his research is highly misconstrued; at worst, it is outright fabrication.

On a similar note, I would love for this mod to have as little fantasy/alternate history in general within it too. :)
 
I share Quinzy's views. Keep it as historical as possible. Of course you will eventually reach a point at which history and alternate history diverge because you will not have any Europeans arriving on the scene. Leave out the Chinese and the Vikings. Including them would require a much larger map and would throw in all kinds of wild cards.
 
Quinzy said:
I've read 1421, the book my Mr. Menzies, and as entertaining as it was, it's still trash. There's almost no history in it, just conjecture. I wouldn't advise having anything to do with the Chinese treasure fleets if you want your mod to have historical integrity. :) Convincing, provided one does not follow up his references. Upon looking in to it, one can see that at best his research is highly misconstrued; at worst, it is outright fabrication.

On a similar note, I would love for this mod to have as little fantasy/alternate history in general within it too. :)
Click to expand...

There's also this intriguing reader's summary of Paul Chiasson's The Island of Seven Cities:

"Much of his evidence for a Chinese presence comes from what is known about a Native American tribe, the Mi'kmaq, whose culture was incredibly advanced for the time and bears many striking resemblances to Chinese culture. There religious beliefs and legends bear a striking Chinese fingerprint and, in particular, their written language (otherwise non-existent in North America) is based on pictograms amazingly similar to Chinese writing."

Including Vikings and Chinese would be quite easy: each get a couple of boats with settlers and soldiers, and a tech tree which overlaps with the indigenes' with 4 free techs.

-- I mean, a game is supposed to be fun, yes?

-:crazyeye:z
 
Chinese pictograms are based off of real-world items. The character for person, rén, was once a stick-man, that became 人; Mountain, shān, was one a depiction of a mountain range, and was abstracted to 山. So Mi'kmaq pictograms looking like Chinese pictograms isn't all that weird really.

As far as religion; culture; etc., I can't comment, as I'm not so familiar with the Mi'kmaq. But from my readings in to Levi-Strauss, perhaps the similarities in culture arise out of similarities in environment, or some such, that lead to similar situations requiring similar responses?

And while the Vikings and Chinese might be fun to include, the game might not inherently benefit from their inclusion. Perfection is about cutting, not adding, is this not true? :)
 
I'm not at all convinced at the alleged Chinese landing in North America. There's no doubt the Ming Dynasty had the capability - there's just not enough solid evidence that they made it to these shores. Even if they did approach the west coast, there would have been no incentive whatsoever for the Ming to establish colonies.

I'd say that throwing in the Chinese and Vikings would just throw the focus off completely.
 
You misunderstand. I was not going to have either the Chinese nor the Vikings as actual civilizations in the mod, but rather as resources located on the map respective to where they may have landed.

I'm well aware that the Chinese landing in North America probably did not happen, but there is a lot of evidence the Vikings did. I think it was written about in the Vinlandsaga, but I'm not actually completely sure. There have been norse artifacts found in Canada I believe.

Then theres Professor Fell's work..but I'd rather not go down that rabbit hole.

I might not have the norse as an embassy civ, I'm not they actually fit as one.
 
I think this is the best way, instead of having Vikings, Chinese, Spanish, English, French, Russians, etc, in as civs, I think they should be represented as resource for mercenaries, with a very late tech called "overseas contact"
Maybe with the Vikings being available earlier on but the resource only being in Newfoundland or up north.
 
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