The Official Alternate History Thread.

How Hitler Could Have Won the War - John Keegan.

I've read that one. It basically boils down to Hitler declaring war on Turkey and reaching the oil fields of the middle east, providing the Nazi's with sufficient enough energy and power to wage a successful war with the Soviet Union.
 
Those What If? books were very disappointing for me. It seemed as though the academics who wrote them were more concerned with demonstrating their knowledge of wie es eigentlich gewesen than with speculation about how things could easily have been different, but when they did speculate about alternatives, the speculation was all over the map. Particularly egregiously, a lot of them failed to account for butterflies and so went on talking about, say, the exact same Constantini ruling Rome despite what appear to have been fairly major alterations three centuries before. It often seemed unclear whether the authors were supposed to be writing out-and-out fiction (either the drier sort that I write or more of an action story-type thing), vague speculation with no real basis in much of anything, more "hard-boiled" counterfactuals, or just talking about how important X event actually was because of how much different things could've been if it happened another way. This was kind of a mess.

The ones you listed do include some of the 'better' articles from those books, but some of them - especially that awful Hanson one - weren't. I thought that the OLYMPIC one was probably the best, which is kinda funny because the Tavern is loaded with people who steadfastly deny its premise.
 
I thought that the OLYMPIC one was probably the best, which is kinda funny because the Tavern is loaded with people who steadfastly deny its premise.

Do go on sir.
 
Do go on sir.
It's based on the idea that the Americans would have had to invade Japan absent the ability or willingness to use nuclear weapons. OLYMPIC was the first stage of the invasion, an attack by Walter Krueger's Sixth Army on the island of Kyushu that was supposed to step off in November 1945, to be followed up by CORONET, attacks by the First Army (freshly in from Europe) and the Eighth Army on the Tokyo Bay area in March 1946.

The notion that atomic weapons were irrelevant to the Japanese unconditional surrender is very popular on CFCOT, as you can see in the thread about whether their use was justified.
 
It's based on the idea that the Americans would have had to invade Japan absent the ability or willingness to use nuclear weapons. OLYMPIC was the first stage of the invasion, an attack by Walter Krueger's Sixth Army on the island of Kyushu that was supposed to step off in November 1945, to be followed up by CORONET, attacks by the First Army (freshly in from Europe) and the Eighth Army on the Tokyo Bay area in March 1946.

The notion that atomic weapons were irrelevant to the Japanese unconditional surrender is very popular on CFCOT, as you can see in the thread about whether their use was justified.

Yeah, I saw the whole nukes don't matter crowd. I'm not sure I get what your exact point here is though - I'll also state for the record that I haven't read the What If? books in like a decade.

So just so I'm sure, what you're saying is the following: Assuming the Americans don't have the bomb for whatever reason, the Americans would still have had to invade, because the Japanese probably would not have surrendered.
 
Those What If? books were very disappointing for me. It seemed as though the academics who wrote them were more concerned with demonstrating their knowledge of wie es eigentlich gewesen than with speculation about how things could easily have been different, but when they did speculate about alternatives, the speculation was all over the map. Particularly egregiously, a lot of them failed to account for butterflies and so went on talking about, say, the exact same Constantini ruling Rome despite what appear to have been fairly major alterations three centuries before. It often seemed unclear whether the authors were supposed to be writing out-and-out fiction (either the drier sort that I write or more of an action story-type thing), vague speculation with no real basis in much of anything, more "hard-boiled" counterfactuals, or just talking about how important X event actually was because of how much different things could've been if it happened another way. This was kind of a mess.

The ones you listed do include some of the 'better' articles from those books, but some of them - especially that awful Hanson one - weren't. I thought that the OLYMPIC one was probably the best, which is kinda funny because the Tavern is loaded with people who steadfastly deny its premise.

Can you recommend a book on von Ranke and/or his historical approach?
 

No, it didn't. Romania is pretty commonly stated wikipedia as only supplying some 35% of oil for the Axis. One has to consider that modern figures almost certainly include vast amounts of oil that would not have been available in 1940, and then even if they had infinite amounts of crude, there would still be the bottleneck around refining ability.

Then you can add in the part about the Allies trying pretty hard to blow up oil production centres - the British had identified it as a weak point before the war even began.
 
Yeah, I saw the whole nukes don't matter crowd. I'm not sure I get what your exact point here is though - I'll also state for the record that I haven't read the What If? books in like a decade.

So just so I'm sure, what you're saying is the following: Assuming the Americans don't have the bomb for whatever reason, the Americans would still have had to invade, because the Japanese probably would not have surrendered.
That is the premise of the author's little article in the What If book, as I remember it, yes. Not sure what's hard to understand here.
Can you recommend a book on von Ranke and/or his historical approach?
I've been asking professors the same damn question for four years. Historiography as in meta-historical discussion about history itself seems to be something a lot of teaching historians don't really talk about all that much.
 
the anti-Turkishness is basically what fooled Stalin to react slower to the German build-up for Barbarossa , even the name evokes of some revenge for some Emperor unseated in some Anatolian creek .

and ı think the nukes were overkill for a thing that had already happened .
 
"Something I've often thought about when playing Civ II"

I stopped reading after that, please update yourself!
 
I've been asking professors the same damn question for four years. Historiography as in meta-historical discussion about history itself seems to be something a lot of teaching historians don't really talk about all that much.

Yeah I've noticed that as well. Sad thing is, I had a historiography class required of my major, but it mostly consisted of the famous ancient historians. There was no "evolution of historical thought and analysis" or analysis of the purpose of historical study like I had hoped. If you've had something like that, then you're better educated than I. Most of what I know about that subject comes from cruising wikipedia or oblique references to it on CFC (Fifty, strangely enough, was the one to throw most of that at me), which has been far more of "glimpse into a world I didn't know that I didn't know" than anything else.
 
Yeah, Fifty asked me about any good books on historiography, and I told him I honestly couldn't think of many. Most of the systematic stuff that's moderately up-to-date is written by a small corner of British academia that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things and has very weird ideas about what history is and how one should 'do' history. Edward Hallett Carr and Marc Bloch aren't exactly the cutting edge of the philosophy of history, but they're probably the most recent systematic treatments of 'doing history' that there are without slipping painfully into horrible bias, and obviously neither Carr nor Bloch could say much of anything about, say, the linguistic turn.

And then you run into stuff that's had an impact on the way historians think about history without, arguably, being history itself, like the writings of, say, Lacan, or Zizek. It's a bit of a mess.
 
I have In Defence of History, by Eric Evans, which I enjoyed; not sure what the proper historians on here make of it, though.
 
That is the premise of the author's little article in the What If book, as I remember it, yes. Not sure what's hard to understand here.

Yeah, I get and agree with all that. I just wasn't sure if you were agreeing with the obvious, or trying to make something of a more subtle point. But it seems I was grasping at straws that didn't exist.
 
Yeah, I get and agree with all that. I just wasn't sure if you were agreeing with the obvious, or trying to make something of a more subtle point. But it seems I was grasping at straws that didn't exist.

I've been asking professors the same damn question for four years. Historiography as in meta-historical discussion about history itself seems to be something a lot of teaching historians don't really talk about all that much.

Historiography is a Master's Level class. Or so it was 20 years ago when I took it.
 
Historiography is a Master's Level class. Or so it was 20 years ago when I took it.
I've taken graduate courses for undergraduate credit and gotten similar amounts of luck talking to the professors of those.
 
American power actually played a role in Britain's desire to avoid war. During the latter half of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth, the British were quite happy - eager, even - to come to rapprochements with countries that were potential threats to vital British interests. Instead of fighting the Americans over Canada, the French over Africa, the Japanese over China, and the Russians over India and the Middle East, the British wanted to use each of those countries to protect their interests in all these parts of the world. (Another reason the supposed interest of British diplomats in a so-called "balance of power" was a lie and sham.) Although this feeling had not fully manifested itself during the American Civil War - it would become most acute by the early 1870s - the kernel of it was there, and eventually played a role in Britain and America amicably settling the Alabama claims and concluding the Treaty of Washington.
Do the Finean Raids play as much a role in that as I've been lead to believe?
 
Yeah I've noticed that as well. Sad thing is, I had a historiography class required of my major, but it mostly consisted of the famous ancient historians. There was no "evolution of historical thought and analysis" or analysis of the purpose of historical study like I had hoped. If you've had something like that, then you're better educated than I. Most of what I know about that subject comes from cruising wikipedia or oblique references to it on CFC (Fifty, strangely enough, was the one to throw most of that at me), which has been far more of "glimpse into a world I didn't know that I didn't know" than anything else.
I was lucky. My College offered a "Philosophy of History" class.

Unfortunately, that meant it was full of philosophy majors.
 
I've heard you (Dachs) praise a certain gifted professor there. Perhaps you just need a mentor. Then again, perhaps this explains the general quality of Historian I've run into.:sad:



...I'd like to hear from other fans of this genre. What have you heard of, and what do you like? Any favorites(or works you're not so fond of) in particular? :)

Back on topic,

Invasion: The German Invasion of England, July 1940, by Kenneth Macksey - self explainatory.

Lighter than a Feather, by David Westheimer - Operation Olympic succeeds, but at what cost?

Disaster at D-Day, Peter Tsouras. - Ike has to pull that speech from his pocket. Tsouras is the author of a number of reasonably entertaining alternate histories.
 
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