The Official Alternate History Thread.

Why? The British strategic interest was to maintain its supplies of cheap cotton, and secondarily to keep the USA from rivalling it as a world power. The problem was that public opinion was overwhelmingly against slavery and the CSA's cause looked lost, so the British would only intervene on the side of the South if their victory looked certain but they wanted to ensure an ally. Intervening on the side of the North if victory was certain would have been pointless; if it was uncertain, dangerous, to say nothing of fruitless. The British really had nothing to gain from a Union victory.
Eh.

The British weren't that interested in slapping down the Americans as a rival, mostly because that seemed like hard work and because the Americans were useful. What the British were most interested in was keeping the whole war very closely contained. So long as it was just Americans killing Americans, with little disruption to trade or Canadian security or whatever, it wasn't of much concern. Palmerston wanted to intervene only in the case of the American federal administration prolonging a war it could not win by force of arms, creating unnecessary disorder and violence and potentially threatening to have that spill over into neighboring countries as well. This meant, effectively, that only the threat of British arms would have to really be used, ideally: Palmerston was emphatically uninterested in using the traitor states as a stick with which he and the British Army could try to beat the federal government to death.

American power actually played a role in Britain's desire to avoid war. During the latter half of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth, the British were quite happy - eager, even - to come to rapprochements with countries that were potential threats to vital British interests. Instead of fighting the Americans over Canada, the French over Africa, the Japanese over China, and the Russians over India and the Middle East, the British wanted to use each of those countries to protect their interests in all these parts of the world. (Another reason the supposed interest of British diplomats in a so-called "balance of power" was a lie and sham.) Although this feeling had not fully manifested itself during the American Civil War - it would become most acute by the early 1870s - the kernel of it was there, and eventually played a role in Britain and America amicably settling the Alabama claims and concluding the Treaty of Washington.

Having said all that, I do agree with you that there was no real potential for a British intervention on the side of the federal government. Popular opinion was by no means as coherent as has been sometimes argued, and the debate over whether the textile workers of Lancashire cared more for (to simplify) their material well-being or for the moral victory over human bondage has not, to my knowledge, been successfully concluded. (And whether they had enough clout to make the Cabinet seriously consider the opinions when making policy is another matter entirely.) Confederate military victory is a term that can never really be defined because it is impossible to conceive of a scenario in which it was even potentially thinkable, but even if traitor armies successfully compelled the federal government to surrender the border states I can't imagine the British seizing that as a pretext on which to intervene.
 
ı have so few books and ı even succeeded in losing Massey's bricksize Dreadnought somehow . Though ı still remember the way Admiral Fisher changed his ways against the Americans when his son or daughter married the heir of a billionaire . The North had already enough money to negate the British way of buying people to do the fighting . They might talk of how great American cannons kept the RN at bay , hence no possibility of blockade , hence no intervention but the foundries that built those new guns were also a factor .
 
The most fun WWII alternate history I've read was not a book but a long series of posts on soc.history.what-if back about a decade or so ago, called "For All Time". The basic idea was "what if everything that can go wrong really does go wrong in the most perverse yet entertaining manner possible?" and it started out plausibly enough but got increasingly insane as time went on (the timeline went on until it caught up with the "present day"). Archived copies of it can be found via google.

The point of departure was innocuous enough; FDR drops dead of a stroke in late December of 1941, leaving Henry Wallace in charge of the US as it's entering the war. Now Wallace was a very well-intentioned idealist, and in the following years has ample chance to demonstrate what, exactly, it is that is paved with good intentions (making sterling decisions such as decreeing the immediate desegregation of the military, and freely sharing nuclear research data with our Soviet buddies...)

Spoiler :

No, just because the Allies screw up a lot doesn't mean the Axis win the war, because it's not just the Allies who screw up a lot. The Axis still lose, but it takes a bit longer and costs a bit more and involves the use of nukes in continental Europe. The post-war global situation becomes increasingly effed up -- already by the 1960s you have stuff like Charles Manson managing to become governor of California (and running for President with Lyndon LaRouche as running mate) and thermonuclear weapons being used in domestic political disputes in second-rate dictatorships because freaking everyone has nukes by then, and it keeps getting worse and worse.

Oh, you mean "For All Time"? That was awesome! Sure, it got a tad, well, stretchy towards the end, but it was still an awesome read. :goodjob:

I found a really good Timeline on Napoleon defeating Portugal and Britain, it goes on for at least a century afterwords, that's where I am. I'm still in the middle of reading it.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=90610

Cool. BTW, I'm a member of AH.com myself and I've got several works in progress.....you may know me as "CaliBoy1990" on that board. ;)
 
The thing I don't like about alternate history.com is when I'm searching for real historic maps I might get some dumb made up thing in the google images search results like what sultanate of the Aztecs I'm trying to get non fiction history
 
Btw

Didn't Napoleon beat the Portuguese in our timeline?

And how would he invade the UK if he couldn't beat the Royal Navy?
 
Btw

Didn't Napoleon beat the Portuguese in our timeline?

And how would he invade the UK if he couldn't beat the Royal Navy?
No, Junot did, and it didn't take.

And I have no idea how he would have done such a thing.
Paul W. Schroeder said:
His [Napoleon's] naval plans offered little real hope of success, despite the expanded resources at France's disposal and the Emperor's constant demands on his naval minister and his satellites and allies for more naval construction. Ships could be built; trained seamen and gunners could not. Even more important, Napoleon was incompetent at naval war, and refused to recognize it. He made serious and massive plans and preparations at Boulogne for a cross-Channel invasion, but by 1805 the likely results of an attempt were as clear to him as to the British, who hoped he would try it.
Bolding mine.
 
I did read that - at least prior to the revolution; I don't know if this continued after it - French crews tended to be better than British, because the French had a standing draft of maritime workers in times of war, while the British methods more often resulted in criminals and less-than-able seamen being impressed. More to the point, the Royal Navy was an object of huge expenditure; Napoleon simply couldn't build overnight a fleet to match centuries of effort from a pretty close rival.
 
I did read that - at least prior to the revolution; I don't know if this continued after it - French crews tended to be better than British, because the French had a standing draft of maritime workers in times of war, while the British methods more often resulted in criminals and less-than-able seamen being impressed. More to the point, the Royal Navy was an object of huge expenditure; Napoleon simply couldn't build overnight a fleet to match centuries of effort from a pretty close rival.
The Revolution basically gutted the French navy. While the army retained a large number of educated officers who were familiar with combat, organization, and the intellectual and theoretical developments in the post-1763 French military academies, the navy retained virtually nobody. Many of the trained officers and seamen fled the country; others participated in the royalist rebellions in the Vendée and other places, and were summarily executed upon the failures of those rebellions. It was not the same organization that crushed the British in Chesapeake Bay.

This was not necessarily that much of a handicap in the early 1790s, because the British were facing serious problems among the rank and file of their own fleet, too, considering the mutinies at the Nore and Spithead. In the engagement of the Glorious First of June (1794), one can reasonably say that both fleets were well matched, at least in terms of personnel. But while the British continued efforts to repair their fleet and restore a measure of skill and training - a process aided considerably by the massive impressment of American seamen, but that's a different story - the French simply weren't as interested. (Perhaps it would be better to say that the French had less of an intrinsic strength on which to build, given the aforementioned rebellions in the Vendée and whatnot and the competition for funds and leadership with the vast French land armies.) While one cannot say that the French fleet languished in port during the 1790s, the extent to which the British had opened a gap between the two navies by the end of the decade was nearly insurmountable.
 
And how would he invade the UK if he couldn't beat the Royal Navy?

Well, in the alt-history that was linked, the reason given is that having Portugal soundly defeated somehow allows the Continental System to succeed. Russia seems to vanish entirely, and Napoleon sits on his hands for a few years, builds a big modern fleet, and then defeats the RN.

This seems to ignore the character of Napoleon (who loved him some fighting) and (I think) the rough shape of the French economy.
 
What if Thunderfall, in a knife edge contest had instead founded a forum centered around his other true love, market gardening?
What if rugbyLEAGUEfan had coined his username after his other true love, unprotected sex in hotel saunas?

Spoiler :
Clarifying this is a joke and should not warrant an infraction. Here's a smiley face to prove it: :p
 
Well, in the alt-history that was linked, the reason given is that having Portugal soundly defeated somehow allows the Continental System to succeed. Russia seems to vanish entirely, and Napoleon sits on his hands for a few years, builds a big modern fleet, and then defeats the RN.

This seems to ignore the character of Napoleon (who loved him some fighting) and (I think) the rough shape of the French economy.
Also, it ignores the purpose of the Continental System, which was not to make economic war on Britain, but to turn all of Europe into a French colony.
 
Technically, I suppose so.....maybe.
In 1811, Napoleon ended his prohibition on trade with Britain. Certain British merchants were given licenses to sell goods to France and France only. All other members of the Continental System were expected to maintain their so-called blockade.

There is no way to construe that policy as anything but an attack on Europe: Europeans that lived in countries not named "the French Empire" were made to suffer the restrictions of a trade embargo while the French themselves continued to benefit from trading with Britain. And the enforcement of this system throughout Europe gave Napoleon a pretext to create a vast army of intendants and bureaucrats to swarm into the ports and entrepots of Europe and, effectively, take control of the economic life of European countries. It gave Napoleon another flimsy cover for his aggressive wars for other countries, such that to this day plenty of historians uncritically report the claim that the wars in Russia, Spain, and Portugal were efforts to reestablish the Continental System in those countries, instead of merely being Napoleon's unchecked, unslaked, naked ambition for conquest.
 
Confederate military victory is a term that can never really be defined because it is impossible to conceive of a scenario in which it was even potentially thinkable

I've brought this up before to old-school American History buffs, who pounce on the idea that Gettysburg or Antiedam might have gone the other way, and this would have led to some sort of capture of Washington or something. So my question to you is, what exactly would a "capture of DC" entail? I've heard that it was the most heavily defended city in the world at the end of the war, I assume there were significant forces in reserve during those engagements to garrison the capital? I assume Lincoln was in the White House during the war, would he be expected to flee, and then who cares what happens to the city? Or could there be some sort of hostage scenario, execution of The Tyrant, or whatever? TELL ME WHAT YOU KNOW.
 
Dude the CSA, or Free States as I like to call them would roll straight up the East Coast until they reached NYC:

DMZ_-1_page01_panel01.png
 
The Confederates' best chance at capturing DC was in the first year of the war, before the outskirts of the city became a massive network of entrenchments and fortifications. Any long siege by the Confederates would be matched by the Union funneling massive amounts of manpower into the defense and counterattacks (look at how quickly Stanton moved troops to Tennessee to reinforce after Chickamauga--in 8 days, I think, they were able to move 25,000 troops from Virginia all the way to Chattanooga). Reinforcing DC would be an even greater priority, and they would have the massive rail networks of the East dumping troops off in Maryland and marching up to the lines.

I think any Confederate assault on DC after Gettsyburg (or even after Antietam) would result in a massive battle of attrition that would only magnify the Confederate's manpower and supply problems in the East.
 
I've brought this up before to old-school American History buffs, who pounce on the idea that Gettysburg or Antiedam might have gone the other way, and this would have led to some sort of capture of Washington or something. So my question to you is, what exactly would a "capture of DC" entail? I've heard that it was the most heavily defended city in the world at the end of the war, I assume there were significant forces in reserve during those engagements to garrison the capital? I assume Lincoln was in the White House during the war, would he be expected to flee, and then who cares what happens to the city? Or could there be some sort of hostage scenario, execution of The Tyrant, or whatever? TELL ME WHAT YOU KNOW.
Yes, the capital was the most heavily defended place in the world at the time. By 1870, the Paris system of fortifications would be far more formidable, but that was still some way off; the only other comparable city I can think of would be Taiping Nanjing, but Zeng Guofan's Hunan Army stormed it in 1864 so. In order to successfully assault the capital, Lee would have to have his forces fight through the very large capital-area garrison, somehow smash the cordon of forts in the suburbs at the same time, all the while defending against whatever Federal armies would be shipped in to attack his rear or reinforce the capital.

Good luck with that, Zombie Bobby.
The Confederates' best chance at capturing DC was in the first year of the war, before the outskirts of the city became a massive network of entrenchments and fortifications. Any long siege by the Confederates would be matched by the Union funneling massive amounts of manpower into the defense and counterattacks (look at how quickly Stanton moved troops to Tennessee to reinforce after Chickamauga--in 8 days, I think, they were able to move 25,000 troops from Virginia all the way to Chattanooga). Reinforcing DC would be an even greater priority, and they would have the massive rail networks of the East dumping troops off in Maryland and marching up to the lines.

I think any Confederate assault on DC after Gettsyburg (or even after Antietam) would result in a massive battle of attrition that would only magnify the Confederate's manpower and supply problems in the East.
Ignoring that, though, one has to look at the operational ramifications of attacking Washington at all.

First and foremost, Lee was fundamentally uninterested in attacking the capital for the very salient reason that he thought his army was too small for it, lacked the firepower, and would ultimately lose and gain nothing out of the project. So there's that to consider; the only way this stops being relevant is if for whatever reason the capital's forces are ever reduced, and the only time Lincoln even considered doing that was when Grant asked for more troops in the Overland Campaign. (This led to Early's march, the Battle of Monocacy Creek, and the very apparent fact that even when the so-called "heavy" regiments were sent to serve with the Army of the Potomac, the capital was still more than adequately defended.)

Secondly, the actual campaigns surrounding Antietam and Gettysburg militate very strongly against either being used to springboard an attack by the ANV on the DC fortifications. Antietam was not supposed to be a battle at all, it was a way for Lee to cover his army's withdrawal into Virginia after finding that Maryland had little forage and even fewer recruits than he had thought. If McClellan had not gotten a receipt of the so-called Lost Orders, he simply would have missed Lee entirely and been forced to deal with the Confederates in Virginia instead. Knowing McClellan, he would have chosen the option of not dealing with them, so.

Anyway. A colossal victory for the ANV was simply not in the cards at Antietam. Lee's objective was to unite his army as rapidly as possible, prevent any individual part of it from being overwhelmed, and escape. Nothing else was even remotely plausible: he did not want to attack the Army of the Potomac, because he believed he would lose a force-on-force clash if he did so, and he certainly did not want to do that with only half of his army (Jackson's corps being stuck at Harper's Ferry until the very eve of the battle). The best reasonable outcome of the battle was precisely what Lee got: a tactical stalemate, a failure by the Federals to press their advantages of concentration in space and time, and a successful retreat into Virginia. Antietam was a Confederate victory in every meaningful sense, but as it was it was purchased with obscene amounts of luck and the active collaboration of the Federal officer who was charged with commanding the Army of the Potomac (one cannot really call McClellan a "commander").

Gettysburg is at the same time both similar and different. Lee's plan for that campaign was basically to throw **** at the wall and see what stuck. (This was as advanced as Confederate offensive operational planning got.) At least theoretically, he recognized the potential for fighting a "decisive battle" on northern soil and winning. Whether that would involve an advance on the capital afterwards was unclear, but it was at least potentially, theoretically, in the realm of possibility. But if attacking Washington was at least possible in Lee's mind, it's hard to see how it would have been possible in terms of the actual campaign. If the ANV were chased by the Army of the Potomac, it would march to concentration, unite, and destroy it (although this is overstating the effect of calculation on the decision to fight at Gettysburg, which was made out of a vague sense that it was a good idea as much as if not more than an actual CBI or plan of campaign).

But that "destroy" part is tricky. Until the Appomattox campaign, no field army on either side of the war was ever really "destroyed". Lee, Grant, and Hood all came reasonably close: Lee's ANV disintegrated a large portion of the Army of Virginia at Second Manassas and induced the War Department to disestablish the army and parcel out its troops among other units. Grant forced Pemberton's army at Vicksburg to surrender, although it wasn't really a full field army and he ultimately ended up paroling most of it. And Hood annihilated his own Army of Tennessee in the battles of Franklin and Nashville, although again enough of it remained to significantly bolster Joe Johnston's extemporized force that tried to bar Sherman's way through the Carolinas in early 1865. So ignoring all of the tactical and operational problems that made a Confederate victory at Gettysburg extremely unlikely - and there were zillions of them - even if the Army of Northern Virginia somehow won the battle, it would not have destroyed the Army of the Potomac. Meade's army would still exist. Perhaps it would still be almost completely intact, and give battle again at Pipe Creek, another opportunity for Lee to lose depressingly large numbers of soldiers.

Or perhaps it would be badly mauled, and retreat into the fortifications of Washington. What would happen then? Think about how difficult it was for the Army of the Potomac, the Army of the James, and the Army of the Shenandoah to smash the Confederate defenses of Richmond and Petersburg in 1864 and 1865, despite possessing a vastly numerically superior force that was much better armed and equipped, commanded by one of the best officer corps the United States military has ever turned out. Now think of how incalculably more difficult it would be for the Army of Northern Virginia to do the same to Washington - possessing inferior numbers, arguably inferior quality in generalship and the average soldier, fewer munitions, and confronted by a system of forts that put the extemporized field fortifications of Richmond and Petersburg to shame. Lee could no more break this ring and lead a triumphal review down Pennsylvania Avenue than conquer the Moon for slavery and the planter class.
 
In preindustrial times, after a major battle like Antietam or Gettysburg, armies (even the victors) were usually unable to just sally forth into further campaigning. There's little possibility that REL could have successfully campaigned in the North after being brought to battle somewhere.

"In the past..., losses of perhaps 30 per cent had rendered armies unable to fight again..." - Hew Strachen.

The attrition of officers especially breaks the chain of command so that movement orders cannot be communicated throughout the army. Units drive or are driven out of position and must be relocated before fighting can be resumed. Casualties must be dealt with, the reprovisioning, rearming and resting of the men, and foraging for the horses carried out, the dead must be buried.

The one obvious exception to this principle is an army in retreat. Men will always get the word when it's time to flee to safety. Immediate coordinated offensive operations however, are largely out of the question.

Lincoln's frustrations with McClellan and Meade, failing to go after Lee after "victories", miss the poorly understood fact that an army must take time to pull itself together after a major battle.

So Lee's campaigning in the North was for political (propoganda) purposes, not any real hope of attaining a useful military victory. Had REL actually won a major battle in the North, he most likely (IMO) would have grandly withdrawn back into Virginia before the other uncommitted Union armies could be massed against him.

Having satisfied my CW fix, I'd like to mention the following titles;

What If?; The World's Foremost Military Historians Imagine What Might Have Been, edited by Robert Cowley, 1999, 395 pages.

Includes;

Conquest Denied; The Premature Death of Alexander the Great - by Josiah Ober.

The Repulse of the English Fireships; The Spanish Armada Triumphs, 1588 - Geoffrey Parker.

How Hitler Could Have Won the War - John Keegan.

D Day Fails; Atomic Alternatives in Europe - Stephen Ambrose.

What If 2?; Eminent Historians Imagine What Might Have Been, edited by Robert Cowley, 2001, 427 pages.

Includes;

Socrates Dies at Delium, 424 BC; The consequences of a single battle casualty - Victor Hanson.

Pontius Pilate Spares Jesus; Christainity without the Crucifixtion - Carlos Eire.

Repulse at Hastings, 1066; William does not conquer England - Cecelia Holland.

No Bomb: No End; The Operation Olympic disaster, Japan 1945 - Richard Frank.

A tale of three Congressmen, 1948; America without Nixon, Johnson and Kennedy - Lance Morrow.

Just some examples of the 45 fascinating stories in these two books, written by the most extremely informed professionals.
 
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