The Official Perfection KOs Creationism Thread Part Four: The Genesis of Ire!

[DJ Bonebraker]

What gave rise to life is outside of the scope of evolution. Again, you are refering to abiogenesis. And I don't think the chance of life happening is that smal that it can be considered luck. The huge amount of possibilities make it very likely to have happened in my opinion.

Luck also is not involved in guiding the process of evolution, natural selection is,. Natural selection is anything but random. The mutations are.

Right, that is more or less what I said, only not in so many words.... Still, as I said, that is also beyond the scope of this argument, which is whether Evolution (whichever flavor you chose) or Spontaneous Creation (whichever flavor of that you chose) is scientifically valid. I stated that I aggree with the OP, only with a few disaggreements, all of which are beyond the scope of this particular debate; to debate those differences, we'd have to go to one of the "Is God Real?" Threads that are floating around here.

MDWH, your statement shows a lack of understanding of the principles of refrigeration and air conditioning (I have a bit more background in this are than most people here because my dad's one cousin owns a Plumbing and HVAC shop and has a degree in HVAC fundamentals), and all that AC or refrigeration does is use a highly voloatile substance (freon) to transfer heat from one area to another, which falls under the laws of evaporation, condensation and convection. Basically, the when the freon evaporates, it absorbs energy from the surrounding air, and when it condenses in the heat exchanger, it returns that heat to the area where the heat exchanger is. Theoretically, if you opened the door on a refrigerator in a hermetically sealed room, the temperature would remain the same, but in reality it increases due to the heat given off by the compressor pump. Also, depending on where the heat exchanger is and where the air that has had the heat drawn from it are is what determines whether the machine in question is a refigerator, air conditioner or a heat pump, since they all work off the same principle.

 

[Babbler]

Oh, and this is all pointless since Fred was of his rocker

That's simplistic image of abiogensis is, IMHO, a holdover from Genesis. We are brought up thing that the advent of life occurred in a single event, while the evidence from origin-of-life suggest a series of events.

 

[mdwh]

MDWH, your statement shows a lack of understanding of the principles of refrigeration and air conditioning (I have a bit more background in this are than most people here because my dad's one cousin owns a Plumbing and HVAC shop and has a degree in HVAC fundamentals), and all that AC or refrigeration does is use a highly voloatile substance (freon) to transfer heat from one area to another, which falls under the laws of evaporation, condensation and convection.

I know how fridges work - I was sarcastically applying your logic of the law of thermodynamics to fridges.

Basically, the when the freon evaporates, it absorbs energy from the surrounding air, and when it condenses in the heat exchanger, it returns that heat to the area where the heat exchanger is. Theoretically, if you opened the door on a refrigerator in a hermetically sealed room, the temperature would remain the same, but in reality it increases due to the heat given off by the compressor pump. Also, depending on where the heat exchanger is and where the air that has had the heat drawn from it are is what determines whether the machine in question is a refigerator, air conditioner or a heat pump, since they all work off the same principle.

Yes, exactly - although the fridge makes things cooler, seemingly in violation of thermodynamics, this is outweighed by the energy put into the fridge, and overall entropy increases.

Similarly with evolution - any decrease in entropy is outweight by a rather large source of energy. Can you guess what this energy source is?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Similarly with evolution - any decrease in entropy is outweight by a rather large source of energy. Can you guess what this energy source is?

Ooh ooh, I know! Pick me!

(and that source is falling apart, entropically speaking . . .)

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

I know how fridges work - I was sarcastically applying your logic of the law of thermodynamics to fridges.

Yes, exactly - although the fridge makes things cooler, seemingly in violation of thermodynamics, this is outweighed by the energy put into the fridge, and overall entropy increases.

Similarly with evolution - any decrease in entropy is outweight by a rather large source of energy. Can you guess what this energy source is?

Solar Energy and/or Geothermal energy (in the case of deep-sea and deep underground organisms).

 

[nihilistic]

Solar Energy and/or Geothermal energy (in the case of deep-sea and deep underground organisms).

Come on, you know very well that you are grasping at straws. Are you really that desperate?

 

[Smidlee]

I know how fridges work - I was sarcastically applying your logic of the law of thermodynamics to fridges.

Yes, exactly - although the fridge makes things cooler, seemingly in violation of thermodynamics, this is outweighed by the energy put into the fridge, and overall entropy increases.

Similarly with evolution - any decrease in entropy is outweight by a rather large source of energy. Can you guess what this energy source is?

This is only on the most simple level. Fridge was brought into order by another order. Guess what the other "order" is.

 

[El_Machinae]

This is only on the most simple level. Fridge was brought into order by another order. Guess what the other "order" is.

But at least we're done with the idea that evolution violates thermodynamics!

 

[mdwh]

This is only on the most simple level. Fridge was brought into order by another order. Guess what the other "order" is.

If you mean it was made by man, (a) that's irrelevant to the argument from thermodynamics, (b) the analogy to men made fridges would be that God made evolution happen - i.e., evolution is still true, and Intelligent Design is wrong.

 

[Smidlee]

If you mean it was made by man, (a) that's irrelevant to the argument from thermodynamics, (b) the analogy to men made fridges would be that God made evolution happen - i.e., evolution is still true, and Intelligent Design is wrong.

What do you mean God made evolution happen as ID is mostly against the "Blind Watchmaker" form of evolution?

 

[nihilistic]

But at least we're done with the idea that evolution violates thermodynamics!

You are so naive. Smidlee (and other fundie posters) have each gone through this process numerous times. WTH do you think is going to happen a month later when the next idiot brings up that thermodynamics nonargument? I'll tell you what: Smidlee and co. are going to defend that issue as if this conversation (and all previous debates) never happened, and they are goign to defend it until their bullcrap is thoroughly debunked again.

You seem to forget that to fundies, honestly always takes a back seat to proselytization.

 

[El_Machinae]

I really dislike it when people don't condemn people who are wrong, merely because they agree on a partisan issue.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Come on, you know very well that you are grasping at straws. Are you really that desperate?

What do you mean . . . it looked like he got it exactly right, to me.

 

[carlosMM]

This is only on the most simple level. Fridge was brought into order by another order. Guess what the other "order" is.

Seeing how it is you asking the question, obviously the answer must be 'God'. Right? Cause that's your standard answer, after all......

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Interesting article:
A reducibly complex mousetrap

 

[Smidlee]

Interesting article:
A reducibly complex mousetrap

Do you really believe the first 5-6 traps will actually catch a mouse? I seriously doubt it. A mouse is a little tougher to catch than that.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Do you really believe the first 5-6 traps will actually catch a mouse? I seriously doubt it. A mouse is a little tougher to catch than that.

Your doubt is irrelevant to the ability of the trap to catch mice.

http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1996/6/1996_6_90.shtml

The choker, a derivative of earlier beheaders, lured the mouse into poking its head into a small, round hole, whereupon a spring-powered wire noose closed upon its neck.

Do you claim that it is impossible, not merely unlikely, for the first types of trap to catch a mouse?

 

[Smidlee]

Do you claim that it is impossible, not merely unlikely, for the first types of trap to catch a mouse?

What the one in your first article as shown in the drawings? No doubt there more than one way to catch a mice.

 

[Smidlee]

dP.............
Behe gave a simple example of IC but I find your first article shows how lame the examples are that tried to dismiss IC.

 

[Atlas14]

dP.............
Behe gave a simple example of IC but I find your first article shows how lame the examples are that tried to dismiss IC.

Behe completely ignored the fact that there are such things as simple eyes, and that complexity can evolve. The core of his argument was that if you take away one part of the complex human eye, then you have a non-functioning organ, and thus the human eye could not have evolved because without all the parts, it would be non-functioning, and therefore non-beneficial to the organism.

Behe never acknowledged that it was the complexity that evolved, not necessarily the different parts individually.