The Offtopicgrad Soviet: A Place to Discuss All Things Red

[Agent327]

Says who? So, labour adds no value? That's a load of crap.

Dear Lord... where did I say that. Read before you rant.

Note that your stats were from 2003... like, I can count, that's 11 years ago...

So?

In 2010, 4050 persons died from euthanasia or from assisted suicide on request. According to research done by the Vrije Universiteit (Amsterdam), University Medical Center Utrecht and Statistics Netherlands, and published in The Lancet, this is not more than before the introduction of the "Termination of Life on Request and Assisted Suicide (Review Procedures) Act" in 2002.

You said rejecting immigrants...

No. I was talking about immigration control. You're in the US, you must have at least heard about such a thing.

Typical example of not reading facts:

Murdering Sick People:

Death statistics from the Netherlands (July 2012)

Euthanasia is not murder, Mr Knows-Nothing-Of-Law.

"...without the explicit request of the patient!" That is murder!

Let the record show I am vehemently defending LIFE... anyone supporting the Dutch system can only be referred to as a "Death Advocate."

Ever heard of terminally ill patients? Ever heard of Alzheimer? And you claim to be a "scientific Socialist"? Perhaps you should do some reading up about a subject before making bold statements.

Anyway, nice digressing of the actual topic. Excellent use of rhetorics. I see a career in politics in the future.

 

[amadeus]

Cuba has:
-- 90.88% of the voting aged population (ages 16 and up) who votes.
-- ballot boxes are symbolically guarded by children
-- The Communist Party promotes no candidates.
-- any citizen over 18 can run for the National Assembly
-- Any citizen over 16 can run for.municipal office.
-- average (mean) age of member of National assembly is 48.
-- National Assembly is 48% women, 38% black/ mixed race.
-- no jail time for under-16 citizens
-- no private practice, for-profit law firms
-- a low recidivism rate
-- of a population of 11 million, 8 million are members of the Committees for Defense of the Revolution

You think that's impressive, nearly 100% of DPR Koreans vote, and they even vote for multiple parties! And under the Constitution of the DPRK, anyone over the age of 17 can run for office and vote in elections. The Constitution also guarantees the people civil rights, including freedom of expression and a right to housing, food, and security.

If anything, Cuba is falling behind countries like DPR Korea.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

@Amadeus: voting is mandatory in DPRK. Not so in Cuba.

Cuba and DPRK also do not build shrines honoring convicted war criminals.

Ever heard of terminally ill patients? Ever heard of Alzheimer? And you claim to be a "scientific Socialist"? Perhaps you should do some reading up about a subject before making bold statements.

...I see a career in politics in the future.

Read MY posts nlm

I know quite a bit about terminal illness.

Here's me with the third terminally-ill comrade I lost in 3 years... he was a pre-med student in 1980 and gave that up to organize. He resumed his studies in 2012 after his diagnosis, and had been accepted at a research position at PMC (Princeton) in order to find a cure. He became too sick to take the position.

"Future?"
Here's me in 1993 at an asparagus workers camp. I was 24.
View attachment 372717

Here's me 2014 with two visiting comrades... he is 22, she is 24.
View attachment 372718

Future indeed. I fight for life. I am a Communist. I take care of people.one at a time, I take care of people millions at a time.

Como Fidel

"The conditions have been created for the country to start the mass production of moringa oleifera and mulberry, which are inexhaustible sources of meat; milk and eggs; silk fibres that can be spun using traditional methods and also allow for the creation of jobs that can be performed in the shade and are appropriately remunerated, regardless of age or sex."

Fidel Castro Ruz, on Food and Jobs for Cubans...
June 17, 2012
2:55 p.m.

 

[Whomp]

Chill, DJ, I said no... because Cuba would never do that... Only Holland and Oregon do it... I live in the Real World...



How exactly is Cuba a poor example?

I have worked outside of the "profit motive" for 22 years. Profit is what the non-producers take from the workers. That's econ 101. In reality, that entity is called "surplus value"... that value which labor ADDS to a commodity.

Surplus value exists no matter what system... it's under socialism surplus value is socially owned... workers do not toil for the sole benefit of a select few... but for ....

So... who are the savages?

Econ 101? I suppose you could make that case in a homogenous and static world. You can have a higher use value than exchange value in the real world. The equilibrium which rates of surplus value and profit would be constant but in the real world they are unstable. This contradicts the distinction between use value and exchange value. Value rates and prices are completely different. Econ 101.

That said i do admire what Cuba has accomplished with their health care industry specifically biotech. It is not quite the paradise this side of the grave as our Cuban friends continue to send remittances to family. Pretty sad really.


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[ReindeerThistle]

Did I mention the blockade?

 

[Whomp]

Oh yes. The embargo has been a failure in all respects. Why let the Castros scapegoat the US when they already trade with 190 other countries. Shame.


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[Agent327]

Cuba and DPRK also do not build shrines honoring convicted war criminals.

It's the war criminals that are never convicted that are most worrisome.

I read your posts, and discovered nothing new. You did the same, but without actually reading. There's a difference.

I know quite a bit about terminal illness.

But apparently nothing about euthanasia.

"Future?"

I guess sarcasm is lost on you.

Anywho, that was an interesting but futile digression. Perhaps it's time to return to topic.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Hey, this is Red Thread... I'm a Red. No diversion.

I choose life... the most for the most over the longest period of time.

Oh yes. The embargo has been a failure in all respects. Why let the Castros scapegoat the US when they already trade with 190 other countries. Shame.

Still, Cubans as whole doing way better than the marginalized in the US. Cuba is poor, but they stand by their principles and they solve problems socially.

Not so for US.

The US penalizes nations who trade with Cuba, and because certain drugs are only available via US, it has had a tremendous impact on.Cuba.. because lives are worth more than profit in Cuba.

 

[Camikaze]

Could you perhaps explain your position with regards to euthanasia, by reference to the act itself rather than the country the act is performed in? I'm genuinely quite taken aback by what appears to be your position, given it's one you'd generally hear from very conservative people. It seems wildly out of place with the rest of your ideological preferences.

Do others identifying as Reds have a similar opinion on the matter?

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Could you perhaps explain your position with regards to euthanasia, by reference to the act itself rather than the country the act is performed in? I'm genuinely quite taken aback by what appears to be your position, given it's one you'd generally hear from very conservative people. It seems wildly out of place with the rest of your ideological preferences.

I think it's a stretch to say it's wildly out of place with my ideology. Communism is about placing people before profits. It is about saving lives, creating prosperous conditions for all life.

Euthanasia, physician-assisted suicide is a complicated matter. In the context of the state of health care provisions in the US (who, as a nation spends US$3 trillion a year on health care, yet leaves 1/6 of its population uncovered and almost 1/4 under-covered) ), paying to legally euthanize someone before you would consider paying for life-saving treatment, to me, is barbaric. This is the case in Oregon, where less than 5% of the population receives state-funded care.

I do not wish to tell people how they want to die. But I do not think that the life-ending decision should be forced on the person... and when medical bills mount (and in the US they do) families are often put in an untenable situation.

As Gandalf said to Frodo:"Many who live deserved death, many who died deserved life... can you give it to them."

We do not get to play God.

A surgeon contact of ours had an emergency case ... cardiac arrest. The attending physician had given up and already filled out the death certificate. Our surgeon friend, however, kept fighting and the patient survived. After the patient came to, our guy showed him the death certificate... the patient asked if he could keep it... lol

I do not decide when someone dies... I only give them options if they want to live. That, to me, is communism.

I am, of course, speaking of non-criminal subjects. I also do not personally believe in the death penalty, but again, the issue is one of class: there are very few billionaires on death row.

What people imagine or choose to believe about communism is their own business.

Do others identifying as Reds have a similar opinion on the matter?

I would be interested in this, myself.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

That said i do admire what Cuba has accomplished with their health care industry specifically biotech. It is not quite the paradise this side of the grave as our Cuban friends continue to send remittances to family. Pretty sad really.

Yeah wealth flowing from the First World back to the Developing World again is just awful.

Makes one wonder why hundreds of thousands Cubans have fled this paradise.

Not at all. There were many people in Cuba for whom the pre-Castroist system worked well. It no longer works for them. The block of Cubans who affect Miami politics (and thus politics in all of Florida) are highly conservative, it should be no surprise that they would refuse to remain in a socialist country.

By the way, since when do 'democracies' lock up political dissidents?

Take your pick, from the "Greatest Democracy on the Planet."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_Act_trials_of_Communist_Party_leaders
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act_of_1917
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition_Act_of_1918
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatch_Act_of_1939
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_raids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subversive_Activities_Control_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REX-84

Only in a doctrinal Marxist view, not in general, and not in the 21st century.

What is "not in general" and "not done in the 21st century?" Expropriation of labor-value?

I would be interested in this, myself.

I don't really have an opinion on the matter.

 

[Agent327]

I choose life... the most for the most over the longest period of time.

So are you an anti-abortionist? Just out of curiosity.

The US penalizes nations who trade with Cuba, and because certain drugs are only available via US, it has had a tremendous impact on.Cuba.. because lives are worth more than profit in Cuba.

Another bold statement. Apparently hundreds of thousands of Cubans prefer their life elsewhere. Also, could you substantiate your claim that 190 countries cannot trade medical drugs with Cuba "because certain drugs are only available via US"?

Yeah wealth flowing from the First World back to the Developing World again is just awful.

Are you deliberately misinterpreting whomp's words?

Not at all. There were many people in Cuba for whom the pre-Castroist system worked well. It no longer works for them. The block of Cubans who affect Miami politics (and thus politics in all of Florida) are highly conservative, it should be no surprise that they would refuse to remain in a socialist country.

So you are acknowledging that political refugees flee Cuba. I am aware that originally a lot of people profiting from the Batista regime fled, but that doesn't account for the ongoing emigration flow.

At any rate, political dissidents aren't being locked up being conservative, they are locked up for criticism of the regime.

Take your pick, from the "Greatest Democracy on the Planet."

I don't consider a state that denies citizens rights because of skin colour a democracy, personally. And apparently RT doesn't consider this country the greatest democracy on Earth either.

What is "not in general" and "not done in the 21st century?" Expropriation of labor-value?

Here's what RT said:

Profit is what the non-producers take from the workers.

That might be an accurate observation when Marx formulated the idea - although at that time workers were already starting to organize themselves -, and even in underdeveloped countries (among which one might include such states as the DRP of Korea, unless one holds the view that workers voluntarily give up their right to sufficient food in for the ability to launch ballistic missiles), but as a rule it does not apply as such.

Ironically, it did apply in such state capitalist societies as the former Eastern bloc (although in some of these, such as Poland, workers were in effect able to retake some of their power through independent organization).

As a rule, however, it negates the fact that 'non-producers' also invest capital. while part of profit may be derived from what can be taken from workers (i.e. by low pay), that is not the whole story.

So, in short, as a general definition it is flawed.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Are you deliberately misinterpreting whomp's words?

A trite observation is met with a trite reply. Remissions is not proof of failure by the Cuban regime. Their tiny island nation can't stop the Third-to-First World flow of wealth by themselves.

So you are acknowledging that political refugees flee Cuba. I am aware that originally a lot of people profiting from the Batista regime fled, but that doesn't account for the ongoing emigration flow.

Nearly all of the "Miami Cubans" left in the first few years after the revolution. This was also the time when the Cuban economy suffered the most, as it had to deal with the complete reorganization of its economy when the US-Cuban trade was ended by the embargo. Nearly all (as in, 90%+) of the economy in Cuba was US-owned sugar companies, which shipped almost exclusively to the United States. Cuba was effectively a colony, which was thoroughly integrated into its imperial economy. Even the Soviet investment which did come could not compensate for the whirlwind effect on everything on the island, as things were re-purposed to provide for themselves, and to market to other places.

The people who left were people associated with the old regime, or people who did not want to stick it out and work hard for their fellow countrymen to become independent and prosperous.

At any rate, political dissidents aren't being locked up being conservative, they are locked up for criticism of the regime.

We weren't talking about locking people up here. You're changing the discussion.

I don't consider a state that denies citizens rights because of skin colour a democracy, personally.

What are some examples of extant democracies, in your opinion?

That might be an accurate observation when Marx formulated the idea - although at that time workers were already starting to organize themselves -, and even in underdeveloped countries (among which one might include such states as the DRP of Korea, unless one holds the view that workers voluntarily give up their right to sufficient food in for the ability to launch ballistic missiles), but as a rule it does not apply as such.

Ironically, it did apply in such state capitalist societies as the former Eastern bloc (although in some of these, such as Poland, workers were in effect able to retake some of their power through independent organization).

As a rule, however, it negates the fact that 'non-producers' also invest capital. while part of profit may be derived from what can be taken from workers (i.e. by low pay), that is not the whole story.

So, in short, as a general definition it is flawed.

This is gibberish. What's your point: there are labor unions, so there can't be exploitation? And what does Marx have to do with Korea?

You didn't "disprove" anything. This doesn't make any sense at all. Please try and make sense.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

So are you an anti-abortionist? Just out of curiosity.

That is a private matter.

Another bold statement. Apparently hundreds of thousands of Cubans prefer their life elsewhere. Also, could you substantiate your claim that 190 countries cannot trade medical drugs with Cuba "because certain drugs are only available via US"?

I already did... but I'm sure you consider Radio Havana a biased source, so, why should I bother? Besides, you forget that US has 60% of the world's wealth... 83% of which is in the hands of the... sit down... 1%... that has some influence, outside of econ text books, that is.

So you are acknowledging that political refugees flee Cuba. I am aware that originally a lot of people profiting from the Batista regime fled, but that doesn't account for the ongoing emigration flow.

Actually, it does... people don't just send remitances to The Most Democratic Nation on Earth, they also lie about how great things are in US...

Plus, how does your "argument" "explain" the millions who stay? Cubans are a rebellious people... they don't take crap from anyone. And why, after thousands of terror attacks on Cuba plotted and funded from the US, would anyone in their RIGHT mind leave a nation who needed them.

Democracy Now! Saul Landau: Will the Real Terrorist Please Stand Up...

At any rate, political dissidents aren't being locked up being conservative, they are locked up for criticism of the regime.

No... they are locked up for committing crimes in the Most Just Legal System on Earth.

I don't consider a state that denies citizens rights because of skin colour a democracy, personally. And apparently RT doesn't consider this country the greatest democracy on Earth either

.
You are correct. Every year, 188 nations vote for US to lift the Embargo...

and, BTW, only one nation on earth since Nazi Germany has legalized.euthanasia... so, I think we all know how far ahead Cuba is...

Ironically, it did apply in such state capitalist societies as the former Eastern bloc (although in some of these, such as Poland, workers were in effect able to retake some of their power through independent organization).

"Independent?" The Polish solidarity union was as "independent" from the US/ USAID/ CIA as your mouth is from your face.

 

[Agent327]

A trite observation is met with a trite reply. Remissions is not proof of failure by the Cuban regime. Their tiny island nation can't stop the Third-to-First World flow of wealth by themselves.

Typical Red digression? If we can argue against something we will just argue about something else?

Nearly all of the "Miami Cubans" left in the first few years after the revolution. This was also the time when the Cuban economy suffered the most, as it had to deal with the complete reorganization of its economy when the US-Cuban trade was ended by the embargo. Nearly all (as in, 90%+) of the economy in Cuba was US-owned sugar companies, which shipped almost exclusively to the United States. Cuba was effectively a colony, which was thoroughly integrated into its imperial economy. Even the Soviet investment which did come could not compensate for the whirlwind effect on everything on the island, as things were re-purposed to provide for themselves, and to market to other places.

The people who left were people associated with the old regime, or people who did not want to stick it out and work hard for their fellow countrymen to become independent and prosperous.

Interesting - although saying nothing new -, but still not explaining the ongoing emigration.

We weren't talking about locking people up here. You're changing the discussion.

I see. Accusing the other party of what one is doing oneself. Interesting tactic. So you have nothing to say about political prisoners then.

What are some examples of extant democracies, in your opinion?

I'd like to suggest most countries that do not allow discrimination, for one.

This is gibberish. What's your point: there are labor unions, so there can't be exploitation? And what does Marx have to do with Korea?

You didn't "disprove" anything. This doesn't make any sense at all. Please try and make sense.

You can't understand why the definition is flawed, so you revert to saying it is 'gibberish'? A bit childish, don't you think? I think you can do better, if you try.

That is a private matter.

Unlike your 'position' on euthanasia, apparently.

I already did... but I'm sure you consider Radio Havana a biased source, so, why should I bother? Besides, you forget that US has 60% of the world's wealth... 83% of which is in the hands of the... sit down... 1%... that has some influence, outside of econ text books, that is.

You didn't substantiate anything, you only made a claim that seems rather absurd.

Actually, it does... people don't just send remitances to The Most Democratic Nation on Earth, they also lie about how great things are in US...

Plus, how does your "argument" "explain" the millions who stay? Cubans are a rebellious people... they don't take crap from anyone. And why, after thousands of terror attacks on Cuba plotted and funded from the US, would anyone in their RIGHT mind leave a nation who needed them.

You seem to forget your argument about Cuba being the most democratic state on the planet was already shown flawed. Let's expand the problem somewhat, however: why is it that people want to flee these 'democratic people's republics'? The former GDR actually had to put up a Wall to try and stop people fleeing (the ones that didn't get shot, that is).

No... they are locked up for committing crimes in the Most Just Legal System on Earth.

Try and give a serious answer if you wish to be taken seriously.
.

You are correct. Every year, 188 nations vote for US to lift the Embargo...

and, BTW, only one nation on earth since Nazi Germany has legalized.euthanasia... so, I think we all know how far ahead Cuba is...

I rest my case. What exactly, in your own words, do you think euthanasia means, Mr My Opinion On Abortion Is Personal?

"Independent?" The Polish solidarity union was as "independent" from the US/ USAID/ CIA as your mouth is from your face.

Interesting try, but it wasn't the CIA hat founded Solidarity, my poor deluded friend. The point was about workers' rights, by the way. Try and stay on focus for a few seconds if you can.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Unlike your 'position' on euthanasia, apparently.

My position on state-sponsored,.funded, endorsed and practiced euthanasia.

I stated that I did not seek to tell an individual when they should or shouldn't die.

And, as for opinions on my politics:

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Aaand I'm done with this conversation, JEELEN. It seems you can't help but torpedo an argument with nonsense when things get too complicated for you.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Just temember... Netherlands and Legal murder... the new CFC "Poland."

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I just haven't the patience to sort through the nonsense, nor the inclination, because I know that once I start to get through, he'll try to turn it around and make my position into his: the JEELEN two-step. It's medicine for the dead.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

I'll have some provocative Cuba, China and DPRK stuff soon, but too busy today.