The Other George Zimmerman Trial

[Dralix]

You DO understand that the jury can also consider lesser charges than first degree murder

Only if they are instructed so.

 

[Farm Boy]

Ok, as far as I am from a fan of stand you ground laws, which is pretty freaking far, I'm not entirely certain why the plaintiffs/prosecution and those in support are in a twist about this. The Stewart joke about survivors being worse for a defendant than the dead is old old old. And it's old because it's been true for a long long time. You've got 4 guilty verdicts for 6 decades of prison sentence and a retrial. The only reason I could see being mad about this is if you were really hoping for "hung by the neck until dead."

 

[DinoDoc]

I think they overcharged on 1st degree murder due to the politics of the situation. If they had gone for a lesser charge (ie manslaughter), he'd likely have been convicted.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Only if they are instructed so.

What makes you think this case was any different from any other murder trial in Florida?

Before the jury began its deliberations, however, the judge told them that they could consider lesser charges, including second degree murder, manslaughter, justifiable homicide or excusable homicide.

Ok, as far as I am from a fan of stand you ground laws, which is pretty freaking far, I'm not entirely certain why the plaintiffs/prosecution and those in support are in a twist about this. The Stewart joke about survivors being worse for a defendant than the dead is old old old. And it's old because it's been true for a long long time. You've got 4 guilty verdicts for 6 decades of prison sentence and a retrial. The only reason I could see being mad about this is if you were really hoping for "hung by the neck until dead."

What you should be "mad" about is how 26 states are now condoning murder.

I think they overcharged on 1st degree murder due to the politics of the situation. If they had gone for a lesser charge (ie manslaughter), he'd likely have been convicted.

Just like Zimmerman wasn't?

I think this is clearly the reason why the jury was hung, just as it was the reason that 3 of the jurors finally became convinced in the Zimmerman trial to acquit him:

1. The judge directly told the jury Michael Dunn had the right to stand his ground.

2. The jurors who wanted to convict Dunn did not have the pre-Stand Your Ground jury instruction to support their position, though they were arguing its logic.

3. Dunn's defense attorney explicitly argued Stand Your Ground at trial.

4. Stand Your Ground is a well-known, highly publicized law in Florida that contributes to a swaggering "shoot first" mentality.

 

[DinoDoc]

Just like Zimmerman wasn't?

What does Zimmerman have to do with this case other than being the reason that the prosecution overcharged?

 

[Formaldehyde]

What parts of SYG being key in both trials, and the jury being able to convict them both of lesser crimes, is still so difficult to understand?

 

[Dralix]

What makes you think this case was any different from any other murder trial?

Actually, I think all murder trials are different, but that's beside the point.

Given their instructions, the only conclusion I can draw (without further information) is that they couldn't agree. For all I know, 10 jurors wanted to convict on first degree murder, and the other two on manslaughter.

 

[DinoDoc]

What parts of SYG being key in both trials, and the jury being able to convict them both of lesser crimes, is still so difficult to understand?

No, Florida's Stand Your Ground Law Did Not Determine Either Zimmerman or Dunn Cases

 

[DinoDoc]

FTR: Florida lawmakers vote to expand ‘stand your ground’ law

 

[classical_hero]

What parts of SYG being key in both trials, and the jury being able to convict them both of lesser crimes, is still so difficult to understand?

Is this the first time someone has been convicted of a lesser crime, rather than the higher crime in a murder case?

 

[JollyRoger]

Maybe they should have charged him with successfully attempted murder.

 

[KmDubya]

The guy was found guilty and sentenced to 60 years in prison and will be tried again on the murder charge. In my opinion justice was served, the guy will be locked up like he should be for his actions. The DA should have gone for an easy 2nd degree murder rap instead of the highly political 1st degree when the evidence did not support the crime.

The guy WILL die in prison most likely due to violence and not old age. as black prisoners will make an effort to punish the guy due to the media spotlight. The guy will most likely be raped while in prison. The rest of his life he will be in fear and be tormented and tortured until he is killed.

What more do you want to have happen to the guy?

 

[Formaldehyde]

The DA should have gone for an easy 2nd degree murder rap instead of the highly political 1st degree when the evidence did not support the crime.

Did you miss the posts where it has already been explained that the jury was instructed that they could have found him guilty of 2nd degree murder or manslaughter instead?

Besides, what basis did you decide that first degree murder wasn't warranted? What qualifications or access to additional facts about this case do you have that the DAs do not?

What more do you want to have happen to the guy?

I think you are completely missing the point of this thread. How could someone be found guilty of numerous counts of attempted murder but not be found guilty of murder when the victim died during the very same crime? Why do we have such inane self-defense laws in states with SYG which apparently allow these sorts of travesties of justice to even occur?

Besides, I don't really care what happens to someone who shoots 9 or 10 times at a fleeing vehicle and then watches a movie instead of calling the cops. While nobody should be raped or murdered while in prison, I could certainly understand if some of the other prisoners voice their displeasure for murdering an innocent teenager whose only apparent crime was playing rap music while black. Perhaps he can become a member of a white supremacist gang if they are willing to take him.

 

[DinoDoc]

Besides, what basis did you decide that first degree murder wasn't warranted? What qualifications or access to additional facts about this case do you have that the DAs do not?

1st degree murder requires premeditation. The DAs couldn't prove that to the satisfaction of the jury.

 

[Farm Boy]

Wait, wut? "Voice their displeasure?" With sexual violence?

 

[Formaldehyde]

1st degree murder requires premeditation. The DAs couldn't prove that to the satisfaction of the jury.

How do you know that was the reason for the hung jury? Source please.

Besides, again, the jury was instructed that they could find him guilty of second degree murder or even manslaughter instead.

 

[civvver]

How do you know that was the reason for the hung jury? Source please.

Besides, again, the jury was instructed that they could find him guilty of second degree murder or even manslaughter instead.

How do you know it wasn't? Since they convicted him of multiple attempted murder charges I think the logical conclusion is they couldn't convict on 1st, weren't able to consider a lesser charge and convicted on all the attempted murder charges instead.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Only they clearly were "able to consider a lesser charge", as I have already shown above.

As for the rest:

Juror in 'Loud Music' Trial Wanted Murder Conviction

A juror in the controversial Florida "loud music" trial says there was no chance from the start of a murder conviction in the shooting of an unarmed teen at a gas station because several jurors were convinced Michael Dunn acted in self-defense.

Juror #4 – who asked to be identified simply as "Valerie" – told ABC News in an exclusive interview that the issue of self-defense forced the jury into an immediate deadlock and prompted some shouting matches. Two and then three jurors ultimately believed Dunn, 47, was justified in the 2012 shooting death of 17-year-old Jordan Davis. Valerie, who wanted a murder conviction, says the group knew within the first hour that they would be unable to reach a unanimous decision.

The first thing jurors did when handed the case was turn to page 25 in the jury instructions, she said. The question: Do you believe that Michael Dunn was justified or unjustified in the murder of Jordan Davis?"

"It said if he believed that he had an eminent threat to himself or his fiancee, so that was a thing that those two folks believed – he was frightened and there was no other option for him in regards to Mr. Davis," Valerie said. "The rest of us were 100 percent sure, you didn't have to react [with gunfire], you could have had another option.

According to Valerie, the jurors who believed Dunn was guilty were split between first-degree, second-degree and manslaughter – but because they were unable to unanimously overcome the issue of self-defense, the jury was deadlocked. The jurors yelled and screamed at each other at one point, but all were respectful of each other's position.

Watch the video for even more details.

So 2, and then 3, of the 12 jurors thought he acted in self defense when Dunn first shot into the car. And they would not change their minds.

 

[woody60707]

Only they clearly were "able to consider a lesser charge", as I have already shown above.

As for the rest:

Juror in 'Loud Music' Trial Wanted Murder Conviction



Watch the video for even more details.

So 2, and then 3, of the 12 jurors thought he acted in self defense when Dunn first shot into the car. And they would not change their minds.

Oh, so there is reasonable doubt then to his innocent. if that is the case, he shouldn't have been convicted at all.

 

[Formaldehyde]

In the US, all the jurors have to agree there is "reasonable doubt" before a defendant is considered "innocent" instead of a handful of them.