The Other George Zimmerman Trial

[classical_hero]

Don't forget that this guy got convicted of a crime, thus the SYG laws weren't in effect because the prosecution proved that he acted out of malice and not in self defence. So that means the laws are working fine as it is.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Zimmerman case was not stand your ground, your source merely asserted it was and proceeded to quote the Dunn case

and your source is easily debunked - if you're laying on your back from an assault and your head is being dribbled on a sidewalk its no longer a matter of standing your ground, just self defense. The Dunn case involved stand your ground because he perceived an imminent attack, Zimmerman was attacked.

You can keep arguing the same propaganda from Fox News and similar sites, while ignoring that we aren't even referring to the aspect of the "stand your ground" laws which allow the charges to be dismissed by the judge. But it doesn't make it true.

Juror: We talked Stand Your Ground before not-guilty Zimmerman verdict

"Stand Your Ground" Did Indeed Play a Role in the Zimmerman Trial

How Stand Your Ground Relates To George Zimmerman

The thing to understand here is that Stand Your Ground laws do not exist in some segregated section of Florida's criminal code. They are not bracketed off from the rest of Florida's "standard" self-defense laws. Stand Your Ground laws are integral to the very meaning of self-defense in the state.

I do not think you can argue that Zimmerman would have been convicted if not for Stand Your Ground. But you certainly can't argue that the law had "nothing" to do with this case. And you most certainly can argue that SYG reduced the chances of Zimmerman being arrested. If that arrest had happened we probably would not be talking about this case right now.

More: Via Andrew, here is a juror directly (if mistakenly) citing Stand Your Ground as part of why they acquitted:

COOPER: Because of the two options you had, second degree murder or manslaughter, you felt neither applied?

JUROR: Right. Because of the heat of the moment and the Stand Your Ground. He had a right to defend himself. If he felt threatened that his life was going to be taken away from him or he was going to have bodily harm, he had a right

Again, it is simply not supportable to say that Stand Your Ground had "nothing" to do with this case.

 

[FriendlyFire]

It sounds like the jury was just trying to split the baby. Sure, odds are he shoot the kids out of angry, but no one can be 100% sure he didn't see a weapon.

If someone threatens you with a gun and you are force to defend yourself by firing 9 shots. Do you

1) call 9-11 to report attempted murder and self defence
2) Go home and order pizza, not speak to anyone about what happened.

I have no idea what was going though hes mind, maybe the kids did swear, hurl abuse at him and threaten him. And he just snapped.

 

[JollyRoger]

Is there anyway we can get Dunn and Zimmerman to look suspicious to one another?

 

[KmDubya]

It looks like the guy will be doing 60 years in prison. Not sure where he got away with anything.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Or as Jon Stewart said:

So the message in Florida is pretty clear. If you fire a gun better hit somebody. Because the one thing Florida won't tolerate is survivors.

 

[Kyriakos]

Hey, it's Florida. At least they have enough Burn Centers for helping other cases there

 

[Berzerker]

You can keep arguing the same propaganda from Fox News and similar sites, while ignoring that we aren't even referring to the aspect of the "stand your ground" laws which allow the charges to be dismissed by the judge. But it doesn't make it true.

Your evidence the Zimmerman acquittal resulted from an unjust stand your ground law is a juror who conflates or equates it with self defense? The jurors were confused by the law and discussed it, so what? They figured out who started that fight and didn't fold under the pressure of the mob.

JUROR: Right. Because of the heat of the moment and the Stand Your Ground. He had a right to defend himself. If he felt threatened that his life was going to be taken away from him or he was going to have bodily harm, he had a right

Thats a right to self defense and it preceded the stand your ground law. The Zimmerman case was clearly self defense, thats how it would have come down before stand your ground.

Juror: We talked Stand Your Ground before not-guilty Zimmerman verdict

"Stand Your Ground" Did Indeed Play a Role in the Zimmerman Trial

How Stand Your Ground Relates To George Zimmerman

Your last link says

It's very true that Zimmerman's narrative holds that he never had the opportunity to retreat, and thus SYG was not relevant to his specific defense.

So you have 1 source that quotes Dunn's atty arguing stand your ground and another source acknowledging it wasn't relevant to Zimmerman. His lawyers didn't even make the argument you're claiming was central to their defense. How does that work?

Your MJ link cites the jury instructions, all that did was confuse 1 or more of the jurors. Those jurors decided Martin attacked Zimmerman, the concern over syg is it'll be used in cases like Dunn - it was used and it didn't work. It wasn't used in the Zimmerman case and he was acquitted.

 

[carmen510]

What do you think of Florida justice and the patently absurd "stand your ground" law now?

George Zimmerman wasn't let off on Florida's "Stand your Ground" laws though, irrespective of the intense media coverage that made it seem like this law was in contention.

 

[Kaitzilla]

The original inspiration for the "Stand Your Ground Law"


Link to video.

 

[IglooDame]

So you would rather continue to troll than try to show how the statements made in either article are somehow flawed?

Again, merely because neither defense attorney wanted to take a chance to have the charges dismissed under one aspect of the SYG law, it clearly doesn't mean that the rationale behind it isn't completely warping the self-defense statutes of the judicial system in 26 states.

'Stand your ground' killed my son

You take someone to task for quoting "propaganda from Fox News", and then post a statement from the victim's mother like it's some kind of unbiased evidence?

That aside... I am looking forward to reading the no-doubt-forthcoming details supporting your contention that "the rationale behind [SYG] isn't completely warping the self-defense statutes of the judicial system in 26 states."

 

[nc-1701]

I see you continue to cherry pick things from random articles and mock people who disagree wth you. By the way, this provides no support for argument; a defense lawyer arguging something and then the jury convicting his client on 4 charges, facing 60+ years in jail, and still facing the last charge(he was not acquitted) is not really successful. It's cute that you worded the OP to avoid saying there's a retrial coming, though.

I feel like this covers it, what this guy did was obviously illegal, wrong, etc. Without the slivers of doubt Zimmerman had, and as we can see he is going to prison for the rest of life. Sure it's a pain that we have to have a retrial for the last charge, but it will stick eventually (perhaps 2nd degree murder would have made more sense than 1st).

This is an example of the justice system working more or less as it should. I feel the only reason this is blown up as a controversy is because various agitators still want to talk about Zimmerman and are now grasping at straws.

 

[timtofly]

"Zimmerman" was the classic case of how to ruin; or how not to "stand your ground".

 

[classical_hero]

Because he didn't use it and this case has nothing to do with the Zimmerman.

 

[Bamspeedy]

If D (Dunn) was as free as Z (zimmerman) I'd be joining any protests.

Shots fired:
Z=1
D=9

If D had fired only one shot then the verdict could have possibly been the same as Z's. Shooting nine times shows to me he was trying to shoot more than the one person in the car that he thought had a gun.

Response after shooting:
Z=stayed at the scene waiting for police to show up
D=went home to watch a movie

Felt threatened prior to shooting? (Both made the claim they THOUGHT the other person was armed)
Z=was assaulted or at least had the appearance he had been
D=not assaulted in any way, but perhaps insulted

 

[Formaldehyde]

Your evidence the Zimmerman acquittal resulted from an unjust stand your ground law is a juror who conflates or equates it with self defense?

So you read the first headline while ignoring all the other facts presented that clearly show that the SYG laws clearly come into play in ANY case where self-defense may possibly an issue?

George Zimmerman wasn't let off on Florida's "Stand your Ground" laws though, irrespective of the intense media coverage that made it seem like this law was in contention.

The confusion is on your part and ironically much of the media which is confused regarding the actual implementation of SYG in the legal system, not their's. Again, merely because their attorneys did not try to have the charges dismissed under SYG doesn't mean that it wasn't a major factor in both of these cases. And the law clearly resulted in him being acquitted. Initially, 3 of the 6 jurors wanted him found guilty of either murder 2 or manslaughter while only one thought he was innocent. It was only after reviewing the implications of the SYG statutes with any self-defense matter that they finally changed their minds.

You take someone to task for quoting "propaganda from Fox News", and then post a statement from the victim's mother like it's some kind of unbiased evidence?

Is that your take on me merely posting an article? That it must be "unbiased evidence" instead of merely a statement from the victim's mother?

That aside... I am looking forward to reading the no-doubt-forthcoming details supporting your contention that "the rationale behind [SYG] isn't completely warping the self-defense statutes of the judicial system in 26 states."

Try reading the articles I posted and even bolded. Then present your own support of the "contention" regarding how the facts presented in them must be wrong.

If D (Dunn) was as free as Z (zimmerman) I'd be joining any protests.

I think it is clear what you should be protesting is how hopelessly broken the Florida murder and manslaughter statutes currently are due to the changes made after passing SYG. There is no way that the charge of murder should have resulted in a hung jury in this case when he was found guilty of attempted murder.

 

[Light Cleric]

What you should be protesting is how hopelessly broken the Florida murder and manslaughter statutes currently are due to the changes made after passing SYG. There is no way that the charge of murder should have resulted in a hung jury in this case when he was found guilty of attempted murder.

He was found guilt of attempted second-degree murder and they hung on first-degree murder. Again, another attempt to word your statement to appear truthful but leave out important details that get in the way of your narrative.

You DO understand the difference between first-degree and second-degree murder, right?

Right?

 

[Dralix]

There is no way that the charge of murder should have resulted in a hung jury in this case when he was found guilty of attempted murder.

There's a difference between first degree and second degree.


EDIT: LC beat me to it ...

 

[Formaldehyde]

He was found guilt of attempted second-degree murder and they hung on first-degree murder. Again, another attempt to word your statement to appear truthful but leave out important details that get in the way of your narrative.

You DO understand the difference between first-degree and second-degree murder, right?

Right?

You DO understand that the jury can also consider lesser charges than first degree murder, just like they could in the Zimmerman case. Right?

 

[Quackers]

Some people are still fighting the Cold War.

Got any dominos forma?