[GS] The Ottomans Discussion Thread

[Bosque]

I'm assuming that 1. Ibraihim can only be placed in a city without a governor and 2. that he will prevent civs from placing a governor if he's there.

I am not so sure this is true. Multiple Amanis from different civilizations will sometimes be posted in the same City State.

Edit - Ninja'd before I could post this. I guess I should finish the entire thread before responding.

 

[DJ_Tanner]

Hmm... I wonder what will happen if you train a Janissary in a 1 pop city founded by the Ottomans.

You can't, per the tool tip you must have 2 pop to train, which appears to be the case even in non-founded civs just the 1 pop penalty does not apply.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Hmm... I wonder what will happen if you train a Janissary in a 1 pop city founded by the Ottomans.

You can't. The description specifically requires a 2 pop city.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If Ibrahim was a real person, then why not use Roxelana instead?

Because a Grand Vizier makes more since as a governor.
If you were Suleiman I'm sure you wouldn't want to send Roxelana to other civilizations.

I dare say that every civ in this expansion (with the possible exception of Canada) is better designed than almost all the older civs (with the exception of a few) in terms of cohesiveness. I wonder how much of a redo some of the older civs have had.

Honestly I think Canada is designed somewhat more interesting than Hungary. The only problem I really have with them is the tundra bonuses. Diplomatically they are, at least, unique.

speaking of early game, does his siege unit bonus also apply to catapults? I admit I never build catapults, but could be tempted with Ottomans.

Catapults are siege units, so I don't see why it wouldn't.

https://twitter.com/EdBeach23/status/1087738799877173248?s=19

Agenda Lawgiver

Likes civs with strong happiness, loyalty, and diverse cities. Dislikes civs without happiness, loyalty, and who haven't conquered a city.

That was (almost) my agenda for him whenever I designed the Ottomans. It's a lot more warmongery than the way I implemented it as I was thinking diverse cities in terms of culture.

 

[Disgustipated]

I don't think anyone expects the Zulu or Alexander, the Civ, to be anything but domination.

Although they mentioned in the very first stream that the civs in that stream were getting makeovers. And Zulu was in that first stream. I still wonder what they plan on doing with the Zulu. The Ottomans have a loyalty bonus similar to the zulu, actually better since it doesn't require leaving a very powerful corps or army there.

 

[Grumpbeard]

Carl is going to love playing this Civ in the livestream.

 

[Bosque]

Hmm... I wonder what will happen if you train a Janissary in a 1 pop city founded by the Ottomans.

The description of janissaries says they can only be trained in a city of pop 2 or higher.

 

[pgm123]

I think the issue is more that Ottomans had a lot going on that wasn't just domination related (think of the furniture!) so there's some desire for some acknowledgement of that in the design (something science or culture related), especially given they were also pretty much a pure dom civ in 5 as well. Something of the same with people wanting say Kublai instead of Genghis for the Mongols.

I don't think anyone expects the Zulu or Alexander, the Civ, to be anything but domination.

That's probably why I'm not that interested in the Zulu. I kind of wish they'd do some research on the Kingdom of Mutapa or another southern African civ. But the Zulu aren't just Shaka (something I need to remind myself)

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Because a Grand Vizier makes more since as a governor.


Honestly I think Canada is designed somewhat more interesting than Hungary. The only problem I really have with them is the tundra bonuses. Diplomatically they are, at least, unique.

Yeah, I'm kind of wait-and-see. I'm having a hard time visualizing how their unique diplomacy will play out.

 

[Kimiimaro]

You can't, per the tool tip you must have 2 pop to train, which appears to be the case even in non-founded civs just the 1 pop penalty does not apply.

You can't. The description specifically requires a 2 pop city.

The description of janissaries says they can only be trained in a city of pop 2 or higher.

Oh... I'm blind, I guess (or just didn't read the description properly)

 

[Jewman]

Nah. City States also count as "other players", and since most Civs capture one early...

This is interesting... Suleiman may end up getting along with a lot of people

 

[Cagarustus]

Mmm. The design is good but one thing thus really bugs me is the name of the abilities.

Great Turkish Bombard? More than 700 years of history and that’s all they could come up with to represent the civilisation?

 

[bbbt]

Really hope Janissaries can be upgraded into, even at the cost of 1 pop. Otherwise it might still be too expensive to hard build, and make warrior - swordsman way less useful.

They are only 120 prod - half the cost of a musketman and only about 33% more than a swordsman. By the time they come around, they should be quick to hard built, especially with the unique governor ability and the policy card.

Hmm... I wonder what will happen if you train a Janissary in a 1 pop city founded by the Ottomans.

I think the description says they need to be built in a 2+ pop city (ala a Settler).

 

[Sagax]

Mmm. The design is good but one thing thus really bugs me is the name of the abilities.

Great Turkish Bombard? More than 700 years of history and that’s all they could come up with to represent the civilisation?

IMO “Mother Russia” and “Amazon” are bigger offenders in this regard.

 

[gunnergoz]

Why do I suspect that any game where this civ turns up on the AI side, is going to end up a war game for the most part? At least until the Ottomans are conquered.

 

[PhilBowles]

IMO “Mother Russia” and “Amazon” are bigger offenders in this regard.

Take it up with Age of Empires III.

Or with Civ V. This incarnation of the Ottomans, complete with bombards, makes a lot more sense than a civ focused on naval aggression with an ability called "Barbary Corsairs". And neither the governor nor the Grand Bazaar is purely aggressive - the civ loses a lot of its advantages if not being aggressive, but it's not like Chandragupta, Alexander or the Zulu who have all but nothing going for them if they aren't constantly on the rampage. The fact that captured cities don't lose population can be very good for taking individually good cities in the later game once they've been built up, or for an early population boost, without committing you to a full-on domination campaign.

 

[Alexadamz]

IMO “Mother Russia” and “Amazon” are bigger offenders in this regard.

Although Amazon is somewhat stereotyped, the name in itself is missleading. The Amazon is indeed one part of the country, a huge part, but the bonus of the ability applies to all rainforest, and Brazil has developed on the coast, where there is a biome called Mata Atlântica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Forest) and that is, in game, mainly rainforest, as rainforests in game represents tropical forest overall. That fits the way Brazil has developed, and the choice we need to make in game, of chopping or not the rainforests, getting the production for chops or keep the adjancies bonuses. I like the idea behind the UA, though I think Brazil could be way better if we got it later, not Vanilla (like the Ottomans, that many felt a huge gap and now everyone is thinking it is a good OP civ, at least for Dom).

 

[ferretbacon]

Mmm. The design is good but one thing thus really bugs me is the name of the abilities.

Great Turkish Bombard? More than 700 years of history and that’s all they could come up with to represent the civilisation?

While I like all the nods they give in this civilization (the Janissary incorporates devshirme, Barbary pirates, the use of bombards to take Constantinople, etc.), this is simultaneously a thematic civ and a sloppily designed one.

Suleiman's LUA has little to do with him. Other than the specific grand vizier being his IRL friend, he wasn't notable for either the grand vizier position or the Janissary corps. I'm not sure, for example, what a hypothetical alternate leader of the Ottomans would be left with. They wouldn't get the governor or the Janissary.

Considering Hayreddin Barbarossa was active during his reign, I think they should have moved the Barbary Corsair into his LUA. This would be in line with extra UUs being tied to the leader (Alexander and his Companion Cavalry, Roosevelt and his Roughriders, Matthias and his Black Legion, etc.). The Janissary could then become the civ UU. Grand Vizier could have moved to become the CUA (with an additional effect to make up for the loss of the Janissary).

It's all pretty messy and they're somewhat too one dimensional. A military angle for the Ottomans is fair, but I think secondarily they were highly cultural, which isn't touched upon at all.

 

[Zaarin]

Carl is going to love playing this Civ in the livestream.

Watch them get someone else to drive this week.

 

[Sagax]

Although Amazon is somewhat stereotyped, the name in itself is missleading. The Amazon is indeed one part of the country, a huge part, but the bonus of the ability applies to all rainforest, and Brazil has developed on the coast, where there is a biome called Mata Atlântica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Forest) and that is, in game, mainly rainforest, as rainforests in game represents tropical forest overall. That fits the way Brazil has developed, and the choice we need to make in game, of chopping or not the rainforests, getting the production for chops or keep the adjancies bonuses. I like the idea behind the UA, though I think Brazil could be way better if we got it later, not Vanilla (like the Ottomans, that many felt a huge gap and now everyone is thinking it is a good OP civ, at least for Dom).

Right. I was replying regarding the name choice in particular, not the design as a whole. And as you said, the name is kinda misleading.